Evangelicals, can you answer these questions?

[Cranmer2010]

There are a few things that I have some issues with when I speak to some Evangelicals regarding their beliefs and what Scriptures says. If you noticed, I am not Roman Catholic, I am Anglican. Here are a few of those issues and please do respond to them.

1. Scripture clearly talks about the Body and Blood of Christ and how Christ professed the bread and wine at the last supper to be his Body and Blood. How do you explain it down to symbolism when Scripture is clear on several accounts that it is much more than that?
2. How can you not believe in the saints being alive and well in Heaven when the Transfiguration proved that Moses and Elijah were absolutely alive and well years and years after they physically died?
3. Why do you not worship in the ways that Early Christians worshipped? Why are altars, vestments, incense and the Eucharist all absent from your worship? I don’t understand how it can be beneficial to strip away all of the Early Church tradition from worship.

I appreciate any and all dialogue. Thanks.

 

[Rightlydivide]

1. Can I address number three although I certainly am not an evangelical I found the third interesting.
   What primary patristic sources are you using to establish number 3? What dates?
   I should add that we do celebrate the Lords Supper like the 11th chapter of Corinthians. For example, we wait for one another during the meal.
   However lets discuss the others ones first.

 

[Rightlydivide]

This might be a good start to discuss your views. Arnobius in 300 AD, while unorthodox in some areas certainly, describes what is not present in churches in this passage.

1. Having shown briefly how impious and infamous are the opinions which you have formed about your gods, we have now to speak of their temples, their images also, and sacrifices, and of the other things which are nailed and closely related to them. For you are here in the habit of fastening upon us a very serious charge of impiety because we do not rear temples for the ceremonies of worship, do not set up statues and images of any god, do not build altars, do not offer the blood of creatures slain in sacrifices, incense, nor sacrificial meal, and finally, do not bring wine flowing in libations from sacred bowls; which, indeed, we neglect to build and do, not as though we cherish impious and wicked dispositions, or have conceived any madly desperate feeling of contempt for the gods, but because we think and believe that they -if only they are true gods, and are called by this exalted name -either scorn such honours, if they give way to scorn, or endure them with anger, if they are roused by feelings of rage.

 

[Cranmer2010]

1. Can I address number three although I certainly am not an evangelical I found the third interesting.
   What primary patristic sources are you using to establish number 3? What dates?
   I should add that we do celebrate the Lords Supper like the 11th chapter of Corinthians. For example, we wait for one another during the meal.
   However lets discuss the others ones first.

Sure. My sources for number 3 are simply how most liturgical churches worship or more accurately, what they all seem to have in common. What I found in being Catholic most of my life and then converting to being an Anglican and having friends in Lutheran churches is that all follow the Gregorian Kalender as the basis for the church year. In this we celebrate the seasons of Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter and Pentecost. All also use vestments, some moreso than others, they all celebrate the Eucharist as the body and blood of our Lord and all recognize most of the Creeds. These of course are just a few.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I am quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia about vestments now:

Development
Four main periods may be distinguished in the development of the Christian priestly dress. The first embraces the era before Constantine. In that period the priestly dress did not yet differ from the secular costume in form and ornament. The dress of daily life was worn at the offices of the Church. In times of peace and under normal conditions better garments were probably used, and these were especially reserved for the celebration of the Sacred Mysteries

 

[Rightlydivide]

Sure. My sources for number 3 are simply how most liturgical churches worship or more accurately, what they all seem to have in common. What I found in being Catholic most of my life and then converting to being an Anglican and having friends in Lutheran churches is that all follow the Gregorian Kalender as the basis for the church year. In this we celebrate the seasons of Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter and Pentecost. All also use vestments, some moreso than others, they all celebrate the Eucharist as the body and blood of our Lord and all recognize most of the Creeds. These of course are just a few.

But we are discussing the practices of the early Church which lets say Ante-Nicene please.

 

[Cranmer2010]

But we are discussing the practices of the early Church which lets say Ante-Nicene please.

ok, then let’s go first with the Eucharist.

 

[Rightlydivide]

ok, then let’s go first with the Eucharist.

No. I wish to discuss the others first. I said that in post two. The Eucharist will take too long and has been done to death. I already posted two statements to start with.

 

[Cranmer2010]

No. I wish to discuss the others first. I said that in post two. The Eucharist will take too long and has been done to death. I already posted two statements to start with.

Ok. I would surely concede that there were those who existed that did not worship in the corporate manner as the Early Church, but what did Jesus establish? Did he not of course unite with the Eucharist and the rest is a matter of Apostolic Succession?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Ok. I would surely concede that there were those who existed that did not worship in the corporate manner as the Early Church, but what did Jesus establish? Did he not of course unite with the Eucharist and the rest is a matter of Apostolic Succession?

Cranmer
I am probably one of the most focused “discussers” you will ever find.
I contend that in regards to “altars, vestments, incense” the corporate manner did not have that as part of their worship. Instead of saying that my examples are those “who existed”, is it not just as likely that they are the norm unless you can prove otherwise?

Although you brought the Eucharist and Apostolic Succession into the equation, I will resist those topics, one which I previously stated I would do, pending clarification about what you posted.

Let me first of all say, that if you started this post without proper patristic support for your contentions about how the early church worshipped, I would not begrudge you taking the time to look into this. It is quite possible that your presupposition was that they existed and I would grant you that as factual: when in fact my research indicates it is not.
As such, I could ask why you worship with things the early church did not?
Thank you sir. Just let me know.

 

[PAboy57]

According to a couple of priests with PHD’s (Fathers Trigilio and Brighenti) they indicate the Mass vestments were originally ordinary garments of the ancient Roman world. Thus, the priest, vested for Mass, is a wonderful witness to the historical continuity of the Catholic Church with the early Church of Rome, founded by the Prince of the Apostles.

The order in which they put them on are as follows:
Amice
Alb
Cincture
Stole
Shasuble
Dalmatic – worn by the deacon during Mass.

From The Catholicism AnswerBook – The 300 Most Frequently Asked Questions

I hope they are telling us the truth. Take care all.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by Cranmer2010

There are a few things that I have some issues with when I speak to some Evangelicals regarding their beliefs and what Scriptures says. If you noticed, I am not Roman Catholic, I am Anglican. Here are a few of those issues and please do respond to them.

1. Scripture clearly talks about the Body and Blood of Christ and how Christ professed the bread and wine at the last supper to be his Body and Blood. How do you explain it down to symbolism when Scripture is clear on several accounts that it is much more than that?

1. How can you not believe in the saints being alive and well in Heaven when the Transfiguration proved that Moses and Elijah were absolutely alive and well years and years after they physically died?

1. Why do you not worship in the ways that Early Christians worshipped? Why are altars, vestments, incense and the Eucharist all absent from your worship? I don’t understand how it can be beneficial to strip away all of the Early Church tradition from worship.

I appreciate any and all dialogue. Thanks.

1. Well if you believe that spiritual food and spiritual drink are symbolical, I guess you are right. I eat spiritual food and drink everyday, which are the body and blood of Jesus Christ. You are right it is more than that, it is Christ’s spiritual drink and food, flesh and blood of Jesus Christ Himself.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.”

1. Elijah and Moses appeared and they talked to Jesus. So? Yes obviously people who live the way God orders are able to enjoy the blessing of being on Heaven with God, alive and not dead, because spiritual death is being that spiritually dead without God and alone. The problem is that people are not sure if good souls that are waiting for the Judgment day, are waiting in the paradise or some other place. So people usually don’t like going this far because they aren’t completely sure, anyways it doesn’t add something to their spiritual life, or strengthens their faith because they already have God and He is enough. He supplies for everything we will need in this life and the next.

3.Will incense improve the worship?, will altars improve the worship?, will vestments improve the worship? People will always like to focus on the actual worship, the environment is something else, that is for our flesh, just like you said this is just tradition, non of these is necessary nor will provide a better worship, perhaps a better looking worship. The important thing is to gather (congregation) and worship God with our hearts on Him and for Him, not to fulfill the desires of the flesh, God first, congregation next. As for the Eucharist, read #1.

God bless

 

[eddy714]

1. Well if you believe that spiritual food and spiritual drink are symbolical, I guess you are right. I eat spiritual food and drink everyday, which are the body and blood of Jesus Christ. You are right it is more than that, it is Christ’s spiritual drink and food, flesh and blood of Jesus Christ Himself.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.”

1. Elijah and Moses appeared and they talked to Jesus. So? Yes obviously people who live the way God orders are able to enjoy the blessing of being on Heaven with God, alive and not dead, because spiritual death is being that spiritually dead without God and alone. The problem is that people are not sure if good souls that are waiting for the Judgment day, are waiting in the paradise or some other place. So people usually don’t like going this far because they aren’t completely sure, anyways it doesn’t add something to their spiritual life, or strengthens their faith because they already have God and He is enough. He supplies for everything we will need in this life and the next.

3:tsktsk:.Will incense improve the worship?, will altars improve the worship?, will vestments improve the worship? People will always like to focus on the actual worship, the environment is something else, that is for our flesh, just like you said this is just tradition, non of these is necessary nor will provide a better worship, perhaps a better looking worship. The important thing is to gather (congregation) and worship God with our hearts on Him and for Him, not to fulfill the desires of the flesh, God first, congregation next. As for the Eucharist, read #1.

God bless

:tsktsk: May God guide you threw the correct path.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

1. Scripture clearly talks about the Body and Blood of Christ and how Christ professed the bread and wine at the last supper to be his Body and Blood. How do you explain it down to symbolism when Scripture is clear on several accounts that it is much more than that?

The food of the Passover meal already represented the flesh and blood of the sacrificial lamb to begin with. Christ initiated this further, making the remembrance not of the Passover in Egypt and the old covenant, but the new covenant that would be made on the cross.

1. How can you not believe in the saints being alive and well in Heaven when the Transfiguration proved that Moses and Elijah were absolutely alive and well years and years after they physically died?

The appearance of Moses and Elijah was to show Christ was in line with the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) as well as that Christ was sought after by those who were dead (Moses) and those who had yet to die (Elijah, who had been carried up in a chariot). In any case, even without all that, it would be nonsensical to use that as an example, as heaven and hell as we know it today was not in existence until the resurrection of Christ - at that time, most of the dead were in Sheol, the Jewish concept of the underworld also referred to as “the pit” or “the grave.”

1. Why do you not worship in the ways that Early Christians worshipped? Why are altars, vestments, incense and the Eucharist all absent from your worship? I don’t understand how it can be beneficial to strip away all of the Early Church tradition from worship.

In making this proclamation, you have to first show that the Early Church worshiped exactly as your church worships today. As Rightlydivide started to show, this is not the case.

 

[Rightlydivide]

According to a couple of priests with PHD’s (Fathers Trigilio and Brighenti) they indicate the Mass vestments were originally ordinary garments of the ancient Roman world. Thus, the priest, vested for Mass, is a wonderful witness to the historical continuity of the Catholic Church with the early Church of Rome, founded by the Prince of the Apostles.

.

How is the fact that originally the person conducting the service wore ordinary garments a wonderful witness? It supports what I am saying.
Clarify please.

 

[frindro]

Regarding Arnobius’ remarks, I would like to point out that with statues, he is referring to are statues of pagan deities, which neither Catholics nor Anglicans have. As for incense, I don’t think God minds incense (see Malachi 1:11). I suspect pagans used altars and incense for things other than Christians would, and that is what Arnobius is refuting.

About the Real Presence, these might offer some good insight:
catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp
catholic.com/library/Fundamentalist_or_Catholic.asp (under “The Mass”)

 

[Rightlydivide]

Regarding Arnobius’ remarks, I would like to point out that with statues, he is referring to are statues of pagan deities, which neither Catholics nor Anglicans have. As for incense, I don’t think God minds incense (see Malachi 1:11). I suspect pagans used altars and incense for things other than Christians would, and that is what Arnobius is refuting.

")

No. Arnobius is not doing that. He is stating what pagans take offence to about Christians. This is from their perspective. There is nothing to indicate that they would be pagan deities but ANY deity. That is what he says and he is saying this is what pagans say about us.

very serious charge of impiety because we do not rear temples for the ceremonies of worship, do not set up statues and images of any god, do not build altars, do not offer the blood of creatures slain in sacrifices, incense

Christians do not have temples for ceremonies
Christians do not set up statues and images of any god
Christians do not bild altars
Christians do not offer incense

This is actually nothing new historically.

 

[bluelake]

There are a few things that I have some issues with when I speak to some Evangelicals regarding their beliefs and what Scriptures says. If you noticed, I am not Roman Catholic, I am Anglican. Here are a few of those issues and please do respond to them.

1. Scripture clearly talks about the Body and Blood of Christ and how Christ professed the bread and wine at the last supper to be his Body and Blood. How do you explain it down to symbolism when Scripture is clear on several accounts that it is much more than that?
2. How can you not believe in the saints being alive and well in Heaven when the Transfiguration proved that Moses and Elijah were absolutely alive and well years and years after they physically died?
3. Why do you not worship in the ways that Early Christians worshipped? Why are altars, vestments, incense and the Eucharist all absent from your worship? I don’t understand how it can be beneficial to strip away all of the Early Church tradition from worship.

I appreciate any and all dialogue. Thanks.

Yes, and I am a Misssouri Synod Lutheran. LCMS
We believe in the real presense both the body and the blood. 1Cor.11:17-34
Of course the saints are alive.
Vestments are worn. No incense however. Although , I think it’s nice.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My problem with Evangelicals is their insistence that the Bible is the entirety of everything and somehow an owner’s manual made by God that encapsulates EVERYTHING about ecclesiology, morality, christology, soteriology, and every other important “ology” there is. The Bible is a HUGE piece of the equation, but not all of it.

Obviously without the first seven ecumenical councils, where would we be? For the first centuries, Christology was being laid-out and understood by the Church. Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophosytism all threatened the truth of who Christ is. Without the unified Church (not some merry band of elders, but bishops embued by the holy spirit) we wouldn’t have had the Creeds hammered-out, the definitive statements of who Christ is, etc. We’d be a mess. And without apostolic Fathers where would we be? Augustine did so much to help us understand grace, sin, original sin, predestination and free will, the role of the Church and sacraments, fight pelagius and donatus, etc. The Catholic Church took the reigns and edited and compiled the Bible at the Council of Carthage and we have her to thank for that. We have the apostolic succession to thank for keeping the truth of the Church alive. It isn’t until Calvin and company come on the scene that we see an individualistic renaissance-minded (and later, sadly an Enlightenment-oriented) selfish approach to history and sacraments and christology done in a vacuum rather than in the general councils and confines of the Church. Men like Ignatius of Antioch and Clement actually lived during the age of the apostles!! It’s pretty blasted hard to believe that after living amongst the apostles that they fell to apostasy as the radical evangelicals seem to believe.

The loss of the proper undertanding of the Eucharist, Confession/Penance, Mariology, ecclesiology, apostolic succession, the communion of saints, and the nature of sin, etc. is what I dislike most about Evanglicalism and why I could never be a Calvinist.

 

[Cairisti]

1. Why do you not worship in the ways that Early Christians worshipped? Why are altars, vestments, incense and the Eucharist all absent from your worship? I don’t understand how it can be beneficial to strip away all of the Early Church tradition from worship.

I appreciate any and all dialogue. Thanks.

A quote from Justin Martyr,
:On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/532/Sunday_Eucharist_in_the_Early_Church_St._Justin_Martyr.html

though it is but a skeleton on how we worship today, it is visable from as early as 155AD that the Catholic Church worships in a manner that the early Church did.