Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[ALLFORHIM]

But when I got older and wiser, I realized that if this was true, then I could never trust anyone in the church. Even the best pastor in the church might not be a “true” Christian.

You know this is a sad statement but true. Humans cannot be trusted like God’s Word can be trusted.

In the Bible, Paul says that believers should be “imitators of him.” (Yes, he also says that we are to imitate Christ.) Christians should be able to look up to their pastors and “imitate them.” But if they might not really be Christians, then we should constantly question everything they do and say. We should never trust their sermons, but rather, examine every word. We should monitor their activities, and if it appears that they have a besetting “sin”, we should question their Christianity.

I wouldnt say stalk them or berade them but if they start teaching something unbiblical yes then by all means question them. It doesnt have to be a witch hunt or a minister hunt(if you will)

Oh, brother! No wonder so many pastors fall away! The pressure to be perfect must be awful!

I would not want to be a pastor either because they are set to a higher standard. God even holds them to a higher standard We should all pray for our priests and ministers.

ALLFORHIM and others, I would like to know how you explain all the verses that talk about “falling away” and “running the race and not losing the prize,” etc. Do you honestly think all these verses are talking about non-Christians who are faking Christianity?

No, I think they are talking about Christians who need to keep focused on Christ. If we perservere and keep the faith we will be rewarded in heaven. Being saved is obviously our first reward but according to the bible there are rewards in heaven. I dont think too much about that. Also christians are blessed here on earth during our life. If we are not running the race and stumble and do not get up and continue–we will be missing out on the abundance of life God promises us throughout our lifetime. Dont ask me what they are because each one of us is different and I dont know until after they have been given to me. We will also be missing out on the JOY of life that is promised us(however that comes into our life). Christians who do not diligently follow Christ but stumble and stay down will be disciplined by Christ and possibly have a miserable life here on earth but that doesnt make them any less saved. It may mean their faith is weak and they stay as immature christians and never grow in Christ

Honestly the only way to avoid this is to continually study scripture.

You know what–I want to say thank you to you guys because by challenging me you have just solidified my thought process here. WOW-I think I just took a giant step forward in my own christian maturity.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But when I got older and wiser, I realized that if this was true, then I could never trust anyone in the church. Even the best pastor in the church might not be a “true” Christian.

You know this is a sad statement but true. Humans cannot be trusted like God’s Word can be trusted.

In the Bible, Paul says that believers should be “imitators of him.” (Yes, he also says that we are to imitate Christ.) Christians should be able to look up to their pastors and “imitate them.” But if they might not really be Christians, then we should constantly question everything they do and say. We should never trust their sermons, but rather, examine every word. We should monitor their activities, and if it appears that they have a besetting “sin”, we should question their Christianity.

I wouldnt say stalk them or berade them but if they start teaching something unbiblical yes then by all means question them. It doesnt have to be a witch hunt or a minister hunt(if you will)

Oh, brother! No wonder so many pastors fall away! The pressure to be perfect must be awful!

I would not want to be a pastor either because they are set to a higher standard. God even holds them to a higher standard We should all pray for our priests and ministers.

ALLFORHIM and others, I would like to know how you explain all the verses that talk about “falling away” and “running the race and not losing the prize,” etc. Do you honestly think all these verses are talking about non-Christians who are faking Christianity?

No, I think they are talking about Christians who need to keep focused on Christ. If we perservere and keep the faith we will be rewarded in heaven. Being saved is obviously our first reward but according to the bible there are rewards in heaven. I dont think too much about that. Also christians are blessed here on earth during our life. If we are not running the race and stumble and do not get up and continue–we will be missing out on the abundance of life God promises us throughout our lifetime. Dont ask me what they are because each one of us is different and I dont know until after they have been given to me. We will also be missing out on the JOY of life that is promised us(however that comes into our life). Christians who do not diligently follow Christ but stumble and stay down will be disciplined by Christ and possibly have a miserable life here on earth but that doesnt make them any less saved. It may mean their faith is weak and they stay as immature christians and never grow in Christ

Honestly the only way to avoid this is to continually study scripture.

You know what–I want to say thank you to you guys because by challenging me you have just solidified my thought process here. WOW-I think I just took a giant step forward in my own christian maturity.

 

[japhy]

Well, if you further into verse 10 which says

10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His (A)calling and (B)choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never (C)stumble;

Therefore–meaning In light of what was just said in the verses 5-9 we (each individual believer)must be diligent in seeking and following the Christian life. Indidviduals must always search their own hearts to make sure they are following Christ the way God tells us to in the Scriptures.

So, the bottom line is I can never totally know for sure that any of you are truly saved because Im not God and I do not know your heart. The only one that can know if they are truly saved is the individual and God.

But Peter says you won’t stumble “as long as you practice these things”. The Greek word Peter uses for “sure” is also found in Heb 3:6 (But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.) and Heb 3:14 (For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end), both of which say we are Christ’s if we last to the end.

So you can be “sure” of your salvation now, but not in the future.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But Peter says you won’t stumble “as long as you practice these things”. The Greek word Peter uses for “sure” is also found in Heb 3:6 (But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.) and Heb 3:14 (For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end), both of which say we are Christ’s if we last to the end.

Yes I agree

 

[mikeledes]

The verse in 2 Peter, however, does not say that the person who lacks those qualities will practice them and thus never stumble. It also says that that person has been justified.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It also says in 2 Peter 1:11

11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

For in this way? In what way will the entrance into the kingdom be provided? It will be provided if a person adds to their faith all the qualities listed by Peter (i.e. “practice these things” v.10).

God bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The verse in 2 Peter, however, does not say that the person who lacks those qualities will practice them and thus never stumble. It also says that that person has been justified.

God bless,
Michael

Peter’s letters were written to people who are already christians(already justified)

Peter’s 1st letter was written to christians to teach them how to deal with with persecution outside the church.

His second letter was written to christians to deal with persecution from within the church.

His purpose was /is this

1. to stimulate growth
2. to combat false teachings
   3.to encourage watchfulness in view of the Lord’s certain return.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Peter’s letters were written to people who are already christians(already justified)

Peter’s 1st letter was written to christians to teach them how to deal with with persecution outside the church.

His second letter was written to christians to deal with persecution from within the church.

His purpose was /is this

1. to stimulate growth
2. to combat false teachings
   3.to encourage watchfulness in view of the Lord’s certain return.

Makes sense too because 1 Peter 5:7 states “cast all your worries upon Him who cares for you”.

 

[Philthy]

japhy;2220585:

Your right I do have to do nothing after I have accepted Christ because Jesus has paid for all my sins.

Hmmm - Im a little confused. Didnt Jesus pay for your sins 2000 years ago? Why the delay in acknowledging what he did until you have “accepted Jesus”?
all for him:

God still wants us to ask forgiveness for what sins we will commit in the future but all that we are doing technically is agreeing with Him that we sinned, because He already knows we sinned and has forgiven us–so when we ask for forgiveness after we are saved we are really just agreeing with God and realigning ourselves with Him.

Again, Im confused. How does one become misaligned with God? In fact, what does that mean exactly? Does it have any eternal consequence whatsoever? Through sin? But I thought Christ paid the price for all your sins - why is God holding this against you in any way?
Your explanation is not quite making sense…it seems that sin has consequences which were not entirely remedied by your “accepting” Jesus previously.

allforhim:

We are judged by our works that either is burned up because it was not done unto the Lord or we will get some sort of reward in heaven if the deed was done for God.

What if all our works burn up? Holy Scripture says that at the final judgement those who have done good works will see eternal life and those who have not will not see eternal life. Again, something is missing in your explanation

allforhim:

I dont know why God does things the way He does but I do believe, have faith and trust Him to keep His promises

I mostly agree with you here - praise the Lord for that! We simply seem to disagree on exactly what He has promised!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

It also says in 2 Peter 1:11

**11 for in this way the entrance **into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

For in this way? In what way will the entrance into the kingdom be provided? It will be provided if a person adds to their faith all the qualities listed by Peter (i.e. “practice these things” v.10).

God bless,
Michael

Hi,
Here Peter is talking about rewards when we enter into heaven not the entrance itself. Some will be rewarded more then others based on how well they follow the scriptures you cited 5–9:thumbsup:

 

[mikeledes]

Hi,
Here Peter is talking about rewards when we enter into heaven not the entrance itself. Some will be rewarded more then others based on how well they follow the scriptures you cited 5–9:thumbsup:

But there is no mention of rewards in this verse. It says an “entrance” will be provided.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Final salvation is our inheritance! Also, this verse is pretty clear on the relationship between what we sow and what we will reap:

Galatians 6:7- 9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

God Bless,
Michael

The above verse also reinforces that and there is no mention of “rewards.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[OneForTruth]

The marriage analogy is an especially unfortunate one.

We keep following Jesus and doing what he wants us to do because we love him so much.

THIS myth destroys marriages. It is the road to divorce.

How many people break up because “they don’t love each other anymore?”

In a good marriage, a couple keeps doing things for each other because they are married, even if they don’t FEEL ANYTHING for each other. I believe that mostcouples who do this will eventually begin “feeling” again. But it doesn’t matter. You do because you are married, not because of a feeling.

In the same way, when we choose to follow Jesus, we keep following Him not because we love Him, but because we have chosen to follow Him and want to keep running the race until the end.

HOPEFULLY, we will love Him, because He first loved us. But I will admit that there are many minutes in every day that I don’t LOVE Jesus. There are times when I am tempted by sin and want to forget all about Jesus and jump right into the sin. And there are many, many times when I simply forget all about spiritual things, Jesus, my life with Him, and my future in heaven, and think only about being a human being made up of finite flesh.

I think that this myth of “we do things for Jesus because we love Him” is one of the major reasons why people “fall away.” They don’t feel any “love” for Jesus anymore, and they assume that they aren’t saved, that it is all a crock, that Jesus doesn’t exist, that they are just too sinful to be part of God’s family, etc.

Instead of obeying Jesus because “we love Him,” we should obey Jesus because we made a promise to follow Him. When we find ourselves walking away from Jesus, we should make a deliberate decision to return to Him, repent of our waywardness, confess our sin, and do our penance which will restore us to fellowship with Jesus and with the Church.

Yes, the feelings will be there occasionally, just as they are in a marriage. But just as marriage is a lot of “dailies”–trash to curb, doing dishes, trim the hedge, change the baby, pay the taxes, make love, sit by the hospital bed, etc., so a relationship with Christ is a lot of “dailies”–pray, read some Scripture, go to mass, confess sins, resist temptation, adore, die.

True love - biblical love endures forever…it never fails completely. Same with true saving faith of God’s elect.

1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

True faith endures as well as we are told that perseverance is not only a condition for ultimate salvation but is an evidence…

Heb 3:14 For we ***have become ***partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

It is an evidence as posed in this verse - and not a condition.

 

[Philthy]

You know this is a sad statement but true. Humans cannot be trusted like God’s Word can be trusted.

How odd that he would bother to have humans write it, record it and preach it.

allforhim:

Honestly the only way to avoid this is to continually study scripture.

Hmmm, but you are human - how does this not contradict your opening statement?

 

[mrs_abbott]

How odd that he would bother to have humans write it, record it and preach it.

Hmmm, but you are human - how does this not contradict your opening statement?

To sum it up, the Holy Spirit guides those who ask for God’s help. The Holy Spirit comes from God and helps guide us because afterall, we are merely humans.

 

[OneForTruth]

The above verse also reinforces that and there is no mention of “rewards.”

God Bless,
Michael

Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 **For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.**15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Galatians 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Yes - the wages of sin is death. This is explained in many places in scripture. The tares will be reading this and the wheat will be reading this. The Bible is addressing, in all cases, the “professing” Christians…this is a general principle that is, again, said in several places in the NT but, we are told that those who are following in the direction of the Spirit are the sons of God in Romans 8:14. Therefore, it can be said that those who are the true sons of God will walk in the Spirit. This is an evidence of true salvation and indwelling of the Spirit.

All of the scriptures that you bring forward can be explained in the context of scripture.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hmmm - Im a little confused. Didnt Jesus pay for your sins 2000 years ago? Why the delay in acknowledging what he did until you have “accepted Jesus”?

Of course he paid for my sins but I didnt accept that truth until I was thirty. I couldnt have very well accepted it 2000 years ago since Im only 41

Again, Im confused. How does one become misaligned with God?

Yes no doubt you are confused because I dont make it easy to understand when I explain–sorry When we sin we break our fellowship with God. We only have fellowship with him again when we ask for forgiveness. Just like when you wrong a friend–that friend will probably break the friendship until you humble yourself and ask forgiveness.

Does it have any eternal consequence whatsoever?

Maybe for eternal rewards in heaven

Through sin? But I thought Christ paid the price for all your sins - why is God holding this against you in any way?

He is not holding it against me which is the amazing part of it. However, God does talk about discipling His children. This discipline from God is what makes us grow as christians. I dont know about you but I have been disciplined from God and it is not enjoyable, but I have learned from my mistakes and will continue to learn(we call that sanctification)

Your explanation is not quite making sense…it seems that sin has consequences which were not entirely remedied by your “accepting” Jesus previously.

Like I said sometimes I just babble and dont make sense I believe I answered this above

What if all our works burn up? Holy Scripture says that at the final judgement those who have done good works will see eternal life and those who have not will not see eternal life. Again, something is missing in your explanation

All of mankind is going to be judged by their deeds. Good and bad. So what makes the difference on which one of us is going to get into heaven because we ALL do good and bad deeds? The difference is who had faith in Christ and who didnt. If you had faith in Christ but all your deeds got burned up well I guess he/she will be getting into heaven by the skin of their teeth.
But think about how embarrasing it would be to not have any crowns to throw at Jesus’s feet. Our rewards are supposedly crowns(whatever that means:shrug: ) and then we are to throw them at His feet. This is all biblical, but I think this is theology that is not completely understood and wont be until we enter heaven and see for ourselves.

I mostly agree with you here - praise the Lord for that! We simply seem to disagree on exactly what He has promised!

 

[mrs_abbott]

Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 **For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.**15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Galatians 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Yes - the wages of sin is death. This is explained in many places in scripture. The tares will be reading this and the wheat will be reading this. The Bible is addressing, in all cases, the “professing” Christians…this is a general principle that is, again, said in several places in the NT but, we are told that those who are following in the direction of the Spirit are the sons of God in Romans 8:14. Therefore, it can be said that those who are the true sons of God will walk in the Spirit. This is an evidence of true salvation and indwelling of the Spirit.

All of the scriptures that you bring forward can be explained in the context of scripture.

Agreed. Plus, what I’ve learned from studying the Bible is that you can’t pick and choose a verse here and a verse there to make your points. All of scripture affects each other, in some way. Hence why we have such a large bible. God felt that this was all stuff that we, as Christians, needed to know.

 

[mikeledes]

True love - biblical love endures forever…it never fails completely. Same with true saving faith of God’s elect.

1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

True faith endures as well as we are told that perseverance is not only a condition for ultimate salvation but is an evidence…

Heb 3:14 For we ***have become ***partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

It is an evidence as posed in this verse - and not a condition.

How would one define faith? Where in the Bible do we specifically genuine faith versus false faith contrasted?
Also, these verses contradict your argument:

Hebrews 2:1-3

1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Note that the inspired author includes himself (i.e. we).

Hebrews 6:4-6

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29

**26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of udgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? **

Hebrews 12:25

**25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. **

Such a warning is not necessary if they were eternally secure. Also note the “we.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

How odd that he would bother to have humans write it, record it and preach it.

I never said I should be trusted.