Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[OneForTruth]

What nobody has done is offered any other explanation for the myriad of scriptures about predestination and what it entails. All anyone really does is poke questions at it…Romans 9 is the largest of these passages.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Suggestion - listen to these sermons…

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/2/?pageSize=25&pageNumber=6

 

[OneForTruth]

Not to mention it’s absolutely contradictory of God for Him to be able to ordain a person to not do His will… because then the person, by not doing God’s will (that is, disobeying God), ends up doing God’s will (that is, what God willed for him to do).

And we know that “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

You are misunderstanding…the url I posted is a deep and crtystal clear exegesis of Romans 9 by John Piper.

 

[clmowry]

This is rediculous claim.

There are plenty of other explaations that have been presented for centuries.

If I took the time too find the links would you even bother to read them?

Chuck

What nobody has done is offered any other explanation for the myriad of scriptures about predestination and what it entails. All anyone really does is poke questions at it…Romans 9 is the largest of these passages.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Suggestion - listen to these sermons…

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/2/?pageSize=25&pageNumber=6

 

[FCEGM]

What nobody has done is offered any other explanation for the myriad of scriptures about predestination and what it entails. . . . .

These articles may help you better understand what “Predestination” means:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a83.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

 

[Linkowski]

These articles may help you better understand what “Predestination” means:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a83.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

In light of these links…Please explain this…

Ro 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Has nothing to do with anything forseen - good works or a free will choice…CLEAR

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Nad nothing to do with forseen works - again - one was chosen over the other - HENCE THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

This is your objection to this doctrine…you think it is not fair. GOD DECEIDES WHAT’S FAIR.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR DOES THIS HAVE TO BE…I AM SORRY BUT THIS IS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Again - this scripture is for you and the CC…

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also

Other explanations are a gross twisting of this passage and the myriad of other passages that support this.

 

[Linkowski]

Just to add a further qualification…why the phrase saying - IS THERE UNRUIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD?? Certainly fallen man would not have a problem with your doctrine - that God forsees the human making the free will choice. But, Paul must add this question because he is writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit who knows fallen man has a problem with this teaching!

Foreknowledge means to forelove…the Bible says that Jesus was crucufied by the foreknowledge of God the Father. Does that simply mean that God saw that it was going to happen and then PLANNED IT THAT WAY. Certainly not! It was forethought and planned in accordance with His call and His plan…NOT OURS!! Hence…

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I hope you can see this.

 

[Linkowski]

One further thing I would like to add…man likes your interpretation because that is what man loves…to be sovereign in salvation…to earn it - to merit it - to be smart enough to choose it. BUT…this is the same attitude and enticement that happened in the garden. You can be like GOD!!! Just read the account of Adam, Eve, and the serpent.

 

[OneForTruth]

Takers?

 

[Linkowski]

Explain my postings here as well…thanks

 

[Randy_Carson]

“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

When one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it.

Consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

There is a false assurance: the New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

Paul, writing at the end of his life [said], “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13).

Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not. For example, Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

Condensed from “Assurance of Salvation?”
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

 

[justasking4]

“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again

i think the answer to your question can be found in 2 Peter 1:5-10.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

The whole teaching of the scriptures is to give us this certainty not just by mere mental assent but a real dilgence as Peter lays out here.

Do you think the apostle Paul was confident that he was saved?

 

[Odell]

“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

When one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it.

Consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

There is a false assurance: the New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

Paul, writing at the end of his life [said], “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai

]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13).

Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not. For example, Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

Condensed from “Assurance of Salvation?”
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

dont forget in Chapter 10 right after the verse you quoted verse 12 Paul teaches that we should not have absolute assurance either. “Therefore whoever thinks he is standing firm should take care not to fall”.

Hey Im going to do as Paul ask.

 

[Odell]

Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Do you think the apostle Paul was confident that he was saved?

To answer your queston about Paul perhaps you should have read what Randy wrote

here I will try to re word it. Ill # my questions for you

(Phil 3:10-13) “To know him and the power of his resurrection and sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection of the dead. It is not as if I’ve have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ. Brothers I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing is forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead.”

#1 Could you tell us what he has not taken possession of?

(1Cor 9: 26-27) I train my body for fear that after preaching to others I myself should not be disqualified.

#2 again what is your interpritaion?

#3What could he be disqualified from?

Further on in Chapter 10 verse 12 Paul teaches that we should not have absolute assurance either. “Therefore whoever thinks he is standing firm should take care not to fall”.

#4Standing firm in What?
#5And what is he warning us of falling away from?

And the verse you quoted says as long as you do these things.

#6Well what happens when you dont do these things?

The whole teaching of the scriptures is to give us this certainty not just by mere mental assent but a real dilgence as Peter lays out here.

The whole teaching of scripture is so that we conform our ways to Gods. Thats where Adam and Eve mest up and Thats why Jesus came.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Be careful what you are doing.

Prove that you understanding of Scripture is perfect/infallable!

Prove that your name is written in the book of life!

Just so you don’t strain yourself, You can’t prove either! You can only make a guess because your human.

Your assertion have been effectively disproven by other posters here using scripture to disprove them. NEXT…

 

[FCEGM]

In light of these links…Please explain this…

Ro 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Has nothing to do with anything forseen - good works or a free will choice…CLEAR. . .[etc.].

The problem with your Calvinist reading of Scripture, and especially your Calvinistic employment of Romans 9:10ff, is that it is both anachronistic and misdirected. To see this, one must know a little something about the authentic history of theology. Calvinist predestination is based upon a very extremeunderstanding of the theology of St. Augustine, which was formulated in the 390’s A.D. in a particular intellectual context. Augustine was responding to the arch-heretic Pelagius who denied that individuals are saved by God’s grace and claimed that we are saved by our own efforts. In this, one must appreciate that both Pelagius and Augustine were Gentiles who were arguing over 300 years after St. Paul wrote his epistles, and with concerns and cultural sensibilities that were not the same as St. Paul’s 300 years previously, when the Church was dominated by Jews. For, in Romans 9, St. Paul was not speaking about predestination in the sense of individualsat all. Rather, he uses Jacob and Esau **as paradigms ** (both symbolize covenant peoples - Israel and Edom, respectively), and what Paul is really addressing in Romans 9 (indeed, all throughout Romans) is the mystery of membership, by God’s selection, in the Chose People -that is, the Covenant People of the Church, which is the true Israel (see Gal 3:29 and 6:16 and Romans 9:6-8). All Paul is addressing is the fact that one can be an uncircumcised Gentile and still be called by God (i.e., predestined) to be part of the Chosen People, and one can be a circumcised Jew (born naturally to the Chosen People), but be still excluded from the true Covenant. This is all Paul is saying.

Now, St. Augustine (who was trying to combat a specific heresy at the time, a heresy that St. Paul never had to address) took what Paul wrote here and applied it to the individual. Paul is not doing this. Paul is merely speaking about Jews (i.e., natural members of the Chosen People) and Gentiles as general principals for who can belong to the Covenant and why. What Paul is saying is that both Jews and Gentiles are saved solely by God’s mysterious grace, and not because someone happens to be born a Jew- a member of the Chosen People. Just as Esau was born first, but was not selected to inherit the Covenant, so the Jews have no exclusive claim to the Covenant of salvation since God has chosen to extend this Covenant to Gentiles as well. Paul was not addressing Pelagianism, and could not address Pelagianism because that heresy had not yet arisen.

Calvinists, however, read Romans 9 as if Augustine’s (very Gentile, 4th Century) “take” on the passage addresses the original context; for Protestants in general (unrealistically) equate the “works of the [Mosaic] Law” cited as unnecessary in Scripture (e.g. Romans 3:28) with any works added to faith, including works / acts of love. This is a profound mistake (see 1 Cor. 13:2, Gal 5:6, James 2:14-17 & 24, Heb. 5:9, etc.).Thus, the Calvinists (and Protestants in general) misread both Scripture and St. Augustine, who condemned Pelagius’ error that we are saved by our own works apart from gracebut never taught that works performed by us through God’s grace have no part in our salvation.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

Likewise, Calvinists misunderstand St. Paul because they assume (very wrongly and anachronistically) that the works-based salvation of the Pharisees is the same thing as Pelagianism. It was not. Unlike Pelagius, the Pharisaic Jews never denied that they were saved by God’s grace. See, for example, Luke 18:11-12, where the Pharisee utters a classic Pharisee prayer, thanking God for all the “works of the Law” that he performs. This is a recognition of Divine grac! Indeed, another version of this same prayer, still uttered by Orthodox Jews today, is: “I thank you, oh Lord, that you made me a Jew, and not like the unrighteous Gentiles.” This prayer provides the correct context for the theology that St. Paul himself (as opposed to Augustine, 300 years later) was fighting against, for the 1st Century Pharisaic Jews were not Pelagians. They did not deny the fact that they were “justified” (as they saw it) because of the grace of God alone. They did not think that they were saved by their own works apart from God’s grace. Rather, their only problem (and this is the reason for Paul’s whole ministry) is that they (foolishly) believed that God’s grace manifested itself in one way and one way only - through observance of the Mosaic Law, and that keeping the mere letter of the Law (or even just seeming to) was enough to make a man truly justified --that is, to make one a “true Jew,” and so a true member of the Chosen People. Paul, speaking through the Holy Spirit, denies this false teaching, for, even “apart from the works of the Law” (Rom 3:28) - that is, apart from being a Jew - one can be justified in Jesus Christ; and the Gentiles have been predestined to this kind of righteousness, since they were called to be part of the Covenant from the beginning of time. God does not call the Jews alone.

Now, if you go back and read Romans 9 with all this in mind, you will see what St. Paul is really saying; and what he’s saying has absolutely nothing to do with the 16th Century Calvinist idea of predestination, which is built upon not the actual context of inspired Scripture, but upon the 4th Century theological arguments that St. Augustine used against Pelagius. These are two distinct things.

But aside from being anachronistic, the Calvinist reading is also misdirected in that it takes the orthodox application of Scripture by St. Augustine and introduces an additional dimension - a new Northern Europeancultural sensibility, which Augustine himself never expressed; and this is the idea of a “God” who is totally arbitrary and unloving - who creates people with the expressed purpose of sending them to hell! This is not the God of Israel or the Father of Jesus Christ, Who “wills that all men be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4). Rather, this is the old pagan Germanic sky god - a god of strength and wrath, who throws people out of Valhalla (the pagan Germanic “heaven”) on a whim. This is not what St. Paul is describing at all.

Writing to Jewish Christians and quasi-Jewish Gentile “God fearers” in the 1st Century, all Paul is saying is that God’s grace is beyond human understanding and that one should not question His loving desire to bring Gentiles into the Church. But, Calvin takes this truth and twists it into something very different, something which violates the very revealed nature of God, making Him into a very cold and unloving being, rather than the God Whose very nature is Love (1 John 4:8). Paul’s authentic theology stresses this Divine Nature, i.e., God’s loving nature causes Him to extend salvation to the Gentiles, even though they have not obeyed and do not possess the Law. But, Calvin’s’ distortion of Paul’s intended teaching contradicts God’s revealed nature and distorts it - i.e., “God creates some people to send them to hell, and don’t question Him about it, He’s God!” This is not the Apostolic revelation at all.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

One cannot reconcile Calvin’s understanding of Romans 9:13 (i.e., God “hated” Esau) with 1 Tim. 2:4, which was written by the same St. Paul. God’s “hating” of Esau refers to not belonging to the collective Covenant of the Chosen People. In essence, God chose the Israelites to be His Chosen People, whereas He did not choose the Edomites. This is all that Paul is saying. This does not mean that the Edomites are thus rejected by God and damned. For goodness sake, Paul’s whole point here is that salvation is extended to the Gentiles, which includes the Edomites! He merely uses the fact that the Covenant was assigned to Jacob (Israel) and not to Esau (Edom), outside of the natural order (because Esau was the rightful heir) in order to illustrate what he says just previously in Romans 9:6-8. While the Jews are the natural heirs to the Covenant, the Covenant has been extended to the Gentiles; and those Jews who reject this fact, have excluded themselves from what God has given to them, for “it is not the children of the flesh [e.g. the Jews] who are the children of God, but the children of the Promise (i.e., the Covenant) who are counted as descendants.” This is all that Paul is saying. He is speaking about the Covenant and membership in it in a collective sense, and the Calvinists distort this reality and create new and false doctrines out of it. Indeed, the “theological mess” of Calvinism is so bad that the only way for a Catholic and a Calvinist to communicate is to go back to the context of the 1st Century Scriptures and re-view everything from there. A Calvinist has a lot of 16th Century, un-Apostolic baggage that he needs to set aside before he can understand Scripture properly and speak to non-Calvinists in a meaningful dialogue. Otherwise, it will just be a bunch of talking past each other. If you are willing to do this, then I will be happy to dialogue with you. But, if not, then there’s little point to it.

However, I will leave you with yet another example from Scripture which proves conclusively (for any honest reader of Scripture) that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Here is the argument:

PROPOSITION: A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world.

Thus,

According to Calvinism, because I have free agency and no true power to choose contraries (i.e., free will) I do voluntarily what I could never do otherwise.

Thus,

“My sins last week happened; they were certain to happen; and they were predestined before the foundation of the world. I freely did evil, but I could not have done otherwise.”

A true Calvinist admits this.

Yet St. Paul teaches that, with every temptation, God has made a way to escape from committing the sinful deed (1 Cor. 10:13).

Therefore, the question for the true Calvinist is:

“Which way did God, in fact, provide for you last week to escape the temptations to do the sins you committed last week? If indeed you are so inclined; that is, if you have been predestined before the foundation of the world to do it??”

This is a clear hole in the Calvinist position, forcing one to conclude that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Clearly, if Calvin is right and one is predestined to commit a particular sin before the foundation of the world, God could not have truly provided a way out of that sin for you to take. How could He? If you were predestined not to take it, that is. So, either Calvin is wrong or we are dealing with a God Who feigns offers of deliverance from temptation. So, which is it? Is God a fraud or is Calvin?

 

[apophasis]

“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

This is in the context of the “end of the age.” Are you saying that only those who live that long and endure to that end will be saved? All who do not live and endure to the end of the age have perished eternally?

Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals.

That might be true if Paul hadn’t taught :Eph. 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith…a gift of God."And Christ Himself:Jn. 3:16 “…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life”

Jn. 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come iinto judgment, but has passed out of death into life"Looks to me like Scripture teaches that the salvation Jesus procured on the cross is subsequently entered “through faith.” A personal response to the message of His cross. That would mean there is no “process” but is gifted at the moment of faith in Him.

there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God.

Yes. At the time of personal faith in Christ.

And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God

To be “un-reconciled” with God one must first be “reconciled” with Him. Adam and Eve were created in an innocent state, not a “reconciled” one. Through sin they fell from their innocent estate, not from a once reconciled one. Your theology makes no sense.

and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

Where in the parable does it say that the father and son were enemies and there was need of reconciliation of the son to his father?

When one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it.

Where in the Genesis record does it say Adam and Eve received “grace?”

Consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22;

This is a general teaching addressed to “Gentiledom” which has now been given the gospel message of Christ and who stand only in their faith.Rom. 11:20 “Quite right, they (Israel) were broken off for their unbelief and you (Gentiles) stand only by your faith”

genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

And these Jesus said He NEVER knew. They pleaded their own works for their entrance into the kingdom. Salvation is not based on works but FAITH in Christ alone - in HIS WORK only. What this passage clearly teaches is that no one can enter the kingdom by works.

Paul, writing at the end of his life [said], “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

His crown of righteousness is because of his FAITH.

But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai

]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).This is all said in the context of men judging other men. Not the divine justification which is gifted by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24), and is reckoned by God through faith in Christ alone (Rom. 4:5; 4:25; 5:1-2).

Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

The disqualification here is that of rewards, not his salvation or his divinely reckoned justification. These Paul clearly teaches are GIFTED through faith alone.

The only ones who have no assurance of salvation are those who are trying to work for it. Scripture provides no assurance to such people. And rightly so.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Jn. 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come iinto judgment, but has passed out of death into life” This “belief” must endure to the end; no sooner! Do you have some devine revelavtion stating otherwise? It wouldn’t matter if you did: devine revelation ended with the apostles.Looks to me like Scripture teaches that the salvation Jesus procured on the cross is subsequently entered “through faith.” A personal response to the message of His cross. No where in scripture does it describe a personal response! A work by the way as it is described. You used the phase “looks to me like”. Is your opinon perfect are you infallable? NO!!!
That would mean there is no “process” but is gifted at the moment of faith in Him. IF your opinions were correct and without error, but they aren’t.
Yes. At the time of personal faith in Christ.To be “un-reconciled” with God one must first be “reconciled” with Him. Adam and Eve were created in an innocent state, not a “reconciled” one. Through sin they fell from their innocent estate, not from a once reconciled one. Your theology makes no sense.Ditto that!! Where in the parable does it say that the father and son were enemies and there was need of reconciliation of the son to his father? The son of his own free will left the presents of the father!
Where in the Genesis record does it say Adam and Eve received “grace?” God created them by his grace.This is a general teaching addressed to “Gentiledom” which has now been given the gospel message of Christ and who stand only in their faith. Faith is about more than a “personal response”. When you realize that then spiritual growth can begin.
Rom. 11:20 "Quite right, they (Israel) were broken off for their unbelief and you (Gentiles) stand only by your faith"And these Jesus said He NEVER knew. They pleaded their own works for their entrance into the kingdom. Salvation is not based on works but FAITH in Christ alone - in HIS WORK only. What this passage clearly teaches is that no one can enter the kingdom by works. Agreed, Again this “personal response” that you speak of is a work. His crown of righteousness is because of his FAITH. His, his who? This is all said in the context of men judging other men. Not the divine justification which is gifted by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24), and is reckoned by God through faith in Christ alone (Rom. 4:5; 4:25; 5:1-2).The disqualification here is that of rewards, not his salvation or his divinely reckoned justification. These Paul clearly teaches are GIFTED through faith alone. To bad Paul never used the phase “faith alone” nor did he preached it. It is an invention of man. If you stick to the teachings of scripture you will find the true meaning.

The only ones who have no assurance of salvation are those who are trying to work for it. Scripture provides no assurance to such people. And rightly so. Show me your name in the book of life. Don’t strain yourself, it can’t be done, your assurance comes from a tradition of man. Your “personal response” of belief becomes a work which you yourself have stated can’t save you.

 

[mikeledes]

This is in the context of the “end of the age.” Are you saying that only those who live that long and endure to that end will be saved? All who do not live and endure to the end of the age have perished eternally?

Apophasis, Jesus is talking about those who will be experiencing the persecution that Christians will experience at the end of the age. However, this “endurance to the end” is a universal principle of the Bible.

God Bless,
Michael