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A
apophasis
Guest
Odell said:
Catholics believe this in error. The whole context (including chapter 11) is about walking by faith and those listed in chapter eleven as examples of personal endurance.
The writer of Hebrews encourages the believer to lay aside every encumbrance and sin which so easily entangles us, and to run the race set before us with endurance. The focus here is not salvation, but the endurance of a daily, sanctified life of the believer who has already been saved through faith and has a heavenly Father who who disciplines him as a son (see Heb. 12:7).
It’s about our “race of endurance” Home. Not for salvation but living out a life while here on earth of sanctification.
I said that in the context of one working FOR his salvation. Works result in a fear of condemnation - faith and grace result in peace:Rom. 5:1-2 "Therefore having been justified BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction BY FAITH into this GRACE in which we stand…"But you’re right, if in your religious walk you have fear of condemnation of any kind, then in your religious walk “you must not truly trust in Christ.” I am in full agreement.
Remember, the author of Hebrews is writing to fellow Jews and when addressing them, corporately, he uses the personal pronoun “we,” i.e., “we Jews.”
In Heb. 10:18 he writes: "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. And earlier in the chapter he speaks of Christ’s one sacrifice for sin for all time, and then He sat down at the right hand of God because His work on earth for the forgiveness of sins was “finished.” (10:12).
In verse 29 he is addressing those fence sitting Jews among them who have not yet made a full committment of faith in the Messiah, but desire to revert back to the sacrificial system of the Law. He is not addressing true believers. “Who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant” is not the response of a true believer.
AGAIN, he is addrssing and warning the “fence sitters” among them. Those among them who have not made a full committment to Christ by faith alone. Keep this in mind when reading all the warnings in the Book of Hebrews.
One who is dead and lost is not in need of “reconciliation.” Reconciliation is between enemies. If one is “dead” he needs life. If one is “lost” he needs direction. Not reconciliation.
The parable of the prodigal son is not about a reconciliation between enemies. But a father’s unwavering love for a son who had gone astray. He squandered his inheritance but not his sonship which was ever his by birth (see Lk. 15:24).
The son’s pecuniary inheritance in that parable is not to be confused with the believer’s divine inheritance in Christ which is “imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven…” see 1 Pet. 1:4). Hence, unlike the prodigal son, impossible for the believer to squander.
The parable is not about the salvation of a sinner, but the GRACE and LOVE of a father toward his son.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
I pray for him as well, but sometimes I wonder if it is a waste of prayer and time when I could pray for those that don’t have hardened hearts. People like him are so sure that the Catholic faith is wrong, that they will spend the rest of their life searching for those key verses that appear to contradict us even though we show him scriptures that support our position. We can also show more quotes from those early church fathers that support our position than those that don’t. The problem exists is where they cannot comprehend the context of the entire Bible on the whole shows.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
I wasnt going to answer but I just want you to know that the same could easily be said for you guys as well.
Im not saying this to be mean or disrespectful. I just want you to see the flip side of your comment. It can be said for both sides.
Just a friendly warning that you must be careful what you say publicly. Having thoughts is one thing, putting them out there is another
There are many many times I keep my mouth(or fingers)shut because when I think it through, what I say about one can easily be turned around and be said for the other. Then I figure what is the point in saying it when it will only cause strife.
I hope you see my point and understand Im not being nasty.
M
mikeledes
Guest
You said that our inheritance is eternal life and that it is something we presently possess. But this verse states that our inheritance is reserved in heaven. Very interesting.
God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
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JoeyWarren
Guest
no problem.I wasnt going to answer but I just want you to know that the same could easily be said for you guys as well.
Im not saying this to be mean or disrespectful. I just want you to see the flip side of your comment. It can be said for both sides.
Just a friendly warning that you must be careful what you say publicly. Having thoughts is one thing, putting them out there is another
There are many many times I keep my mouth(or fingers)shut because when I think it through, what I say about one can easily be turned around and be said for the other. Then I figure what is the point in saying it when it will only cause strife.
I hope you see my point and understand Im not being nasty.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Let me list all these verses again just in case they were missed:
Galatians 6:7-9
**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **
John 8:51
**51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **
Revelation 2:26
26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Romans 2:5-6 (Repeats principle stated in Galatians 6:7-8, namely, man reaps what he sows)
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
John 5:28-29
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
1 Timothy 6:18-19
18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed
These verses still stand.
God Bless,
Michael
Galatians 6:7-9
**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **
John 8:51
**51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **
Revelation 2:26
26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Romans 2:5-6 (Repeats principle stated in Galatians 6:7-8, namely, man reaps what he sows)
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
John 5:28-29
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
1 Timothy 6:18-19
18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed
These verses still stand.
God Bless,
Michael
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JoeyWarren
Guest
ANOTHER BLIMEY WORD I HAVE TO LOOK UP. Can’t yall just use plain simple English?
Edit…
After looking it up, Couldn’t you just have used “monetary”?
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J
JoeyWarren
Guest
I personaly like see Apo reply to each and everyone…
A
apophasis
Guest
Odell said:
My definition of grace is “unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor.” Actually it’s not mine but the theologian’s Lewis Sperry Chafer. If you ever want to read an exceptional book on grace, “Grace, The Glorious Theme.” Although I think it goes by a slightly different title now.
Adam and Eve were not created in a state of grace, nor did they subsequently fall from a state of grace. Catholic theologians and apologists often like to reference our first parents as an example of how one can “fall from grace.” However, Adam and Ever were created in a state of innocence (sinlessness) and it is from that state of innocence that they fell, along with all of Adam’s posterity (Rom. 5:12).
It is said of the true believer in Christ that he is not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14). However, when Adam (and then Eve) was placed in the Garden he was not under grace but under Law. He was never “under grace”:Gen. 1:17 “…but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall die”.Adam transgressed the commandment and died spiritually and eventually physically;“Rom. 5:12 …and so death spread to all men because all sinned (i.e., in Adam”)But the gospel message this side of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is:1 Cor. 15:20-22 “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep” (i.e., “in Christ”.) For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."“For by grace you have been saved through faith…”
When men turn from unbelief to belief they are no longer in Adam but in Christ, the “last Adam,” regenerated by the Holy Spirit, made first spiritually alive (born again), with the guarantee of the resurrection of their humble bodies unto glory to follow; as Christ, “the first fruits,” also was physically resurrected unto glory (Phil. 3:20-21).
This is what it means for the true believer to be now “under grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). The divine grace by which he was saved through faith (Eph. 2:8). The true believer now in Christ resurrected is NOT “under law” (connected to condemnation and death), but “under grace” (divine favor in Christ, connected to life everlasting).
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apophasis
Guest
Paul is stating in Rom. 11 that national Israel was “broken off” from its position of privilege because of its national unbelief in their Messiah. And because of its being “broken off” for unbelief, God has turned, temporarily, to the Gentiles with the gospel of Christ to be believed.
For the past 2000 years the Gentiles have enjoyed a position of privilege (along with individual, believing Jews) while national Israel has been set aside. During this time Christ has been building His Church, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles.
The warning Paul is presenting in Rom. 11 is that just as national Israel was “broken off” from the nourishment of the “holy root,” you Gentiles also will be “broken off” from the position of privilege you’ve been enjoying if, as a people, you too abandon the faith:Rom. 11:13 "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:19-21 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (national Israel, because of unbelief), He will not spare you (Gentile people), either."We know prophetically that the Gentile nations will eventually follow Antichrist. And we know prophetically that God restores national Israel back to Himself. And this is what Paul discloses briefly in Rom. 11:25-29.
Romans eleven has nothing to do with individual believers losing their salvation. As long as you see it that way you will not understand the important teaching of that chapter.
“You” is always referring generally to Gentiles as a people: You Gentiles.Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first (Israel); since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.Paul is not saying here that ALL Jews refused to believe. As you certainly know, many individual Jews did and do today and are part of the Body of Christ, the Church He is presently building (Matt. 16:18).
But remember, it is revealed here in chapter eleven that it was because national Israel was set aside (broken off) in unbelief that the Gentiles, as a people, were put into a position of privilege with the gospel message. Israel, nationally, ceased in 70 A.D. However, she is back as a nation and in her ancient homeland today. And the Gentile nations have become more and more hostile toward the saving message of Christ as well as arrogant toward the newly established nation of Israel.
We are nearing the end of this Church age (the “fulness of the Gentiles,” Rom. 11:25b) when the Church will be taken up to be with her Lord, and God will again turn to national Israel to fulfill ALL the unconditional covenants and prophetic promises He made with that nation (Rom. 11:23, 29). Culminating with the return of her Messiah and King to rule over this present earth (Rev. 19), sitting on His father David’s throne (Lk. 1:32-33) from Jerusalem (Rom. 11:26-27): His future, earthly, Millennial Kingdom (Rev. 20:1-3).
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
LOL I have to laugh because I sit here sometimes and say HUH??? And feel stupid. There I admitted it
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Philthy
Guest
Fine, it is a possession, not an experience. I don’t disagree. Humanity can be thought of likewise, as in your analogy, but that does not preclude a gradation of that possession, nor is it irrevocably permanent.
apo:
I did not intend to “slam” you with my comment, and I am sorry that you feel slammed. You chose to represent the fullness of humanity as beginning at birth rather than at conception. I SPECULATED (ie, “apparently”) that you had done so because your analogy of the “fully human” nature of a fetus - rather than a child - becomes less convincing. I dont consider that a discussion of abortion or any other issue, simply a realization that the analogy has inherent flaws. We’ve crossed swords enough that I trust your intentions - I wont try to “slam” you, I try to be respectful. I appreciate it that you cared enough to let me know that you were offended. I consider it a sign of respect and an opportunity for me to explain my true intentions, so I thank you for that.
apo:
Eternal life is a quality, not a quantity. That quality being “eternal.” It cannot become experientially more or less eternal.
Im OK with this
apo:
And here is where we part ways. Your discussion somehow turns from what eternal life is per se, to what our participation in it is - and you don’t seem to recognize any difference between the two. IF we are in Christ through faith we have eternal life, IF we are not we do not. **Nowhere does this exclude the possibilty of us losing faith and the life we gained through that faith. **If we lose faith, we are no longer in Christ. It is pointless to claim that if we lose faith then we never were in Christ - that is the same as saying that you must persevere to the end to know that you had saving faith in the first place. That, of course, means you don’t have eternal security now in the sense that OSAS interprets it.
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mikeledes
Guest
Actually, national Israel as a whole were not cut off, Apophasis. Only those Israelites that did not believe were cut off. The Jewish believers remain on the olive tree:
Romans 11:17-18
**17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. **
Please note that Paul clearly states some of the branches were broken off. He also says that the Gentiles were grafted in “among them.” Among who? Among the branches that remained on the olive tree (i.e. believing Israelites).
Secondly, it states:
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
How can Gentiles as a whole abandon the faith? This would include Gentile Christians and Gentile Unbelivers, right? But if Gentile Christians can abandon the faith, then doesn’t that contradict “Once Saved Always Saved”?
Gentile unbelievers, Apophasis, do not stand by their faith because they do not have faith. You cannot stand by something you do not have. Secondly, only believers can be grafted into the olive tree, hence the fact that unbelieving Israelites were cut off. Can you explain, then, how unbelieving Gentiles are grafted in, partake of the root of the tree and be holy? Please explain how unbelieving Gentiles stand by their faith?
Also, if the cutting off is something that is to occur in the future to the Gentiles (at the coming of the Antichrist) why is he telling the Gentiles in Rome to “fear” and not “become concieted”? Why should they fear if this does not really apply to them?
God Bless,
Michael
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strngrnrth
Guest
Hi, I’m strngrnrth. I was raised atheist, drawn to Catholicism aesthetically as a child and young person, was pagan for years, Buddhist awhile, Hindu for a little bit, into both black and white magic long ago, and now I’ve been a born-again Christian for eight-and-a-half years. Wary because I was once a communist (hard to believe anything anyone says after learning the truth about Chinese, Cuban, Russian and Cambodian history), I nevertheless bought a few tall tales for about two years about the Catholic Church but my training in research helped me out of that deception in a hurry. Now I feel drawn to the Catholic Church. I went to Mass with a friend and it was definitely a powerful spiitual experience. But so is a good evangelical service.
I’m now somewhat confused.
But I think I have saving faith because God has confirmed it for me. Jesus said his followers would be known y their love for one another and by their signs. I have had many signs and I love my church friends and other Christians strongly. I also love my neighbors (the human race). I know that it is possible for people to have performed miracles in Jesus’ name without knowing him. But he said we would be judged at some time on our treatment of “the least of these” and I mainly do right in that area.
I’m now somewhat confused.
But I think I have saving faith because God has confirmed it for me. Jesus said his followers would be known y their love for one another and by their signs. I have had many signs and I love my church friends and other Christians strongly. I also love my neighbors (the human race). I know that it is possible for people to have performed miracles in Jesus’ name without knowing him. But he said we would be judged at some time on our treatment of “the least of these” and I mainly do right in that area.
A
apophasis
Guest
True believers are a heaven bound people. Though now completely saved we are not yet glorified. Experientially we live our lives here on earth, but it is divinely revealed that positionally we have died with Christ and have been raised up with Him and seated with in the heavenly:Eph 2:4-6 “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,”You said that our inheritance is eternal life and that it is something we presently possess. But this verse states that our inheritance is reserved in heaven. Very interesting.
God Bless,
Michael
Col. 3:1-3 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."Eternal life is in the Son (1 Jn. 5:9-13). He who believes is now “in Christ” seated at the right hand of God with Him. It’s our inherited position and it is reserved in heaven with Christ.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Some Catholics are Evangelical (If you aren’t an evangelical, does that mean you no longer have good news?To my Evangelical friends, of whom I was once one, I would like to ask a question of you.
How do you know you have what you call saving faith?
In the parable of the sower, our Lord tells us that there are some who believe for a while and then they fall away. How are you certain that you are not one of these? What verses in the Bible would you use to back up your conviction, to be sure that you are in the faith?
I have asked this of an Evangelical here on this forum, but have not heard a response. I understand that he is busy, but I want to widen up the opportunity for more responses to this foundational question. I have also asked this of an Evangelical friend of mine almost 2 years ago, and to date he has not given an answer. He has not even attempted one.
In addition to this, I will pose a second related question:
How do you know you have the Holy Spirit to guide you into the right interpretation of the bible?
Many thanks.
)Here is my answer to your questions:
How? Christ.
Who? Christ.
What? Christ.
He is the Way (how) the Truth (who) and the Light (what).
I trust Him. He will lead us into all truth. That does not mean we have arrived. He will save us. We can’t save ourselves.
Either you trust Him or you don’t. PERIOD.
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Philthy
Guest
Endurance for what? Hebrews 10:36 "You need to endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised…
Endurance is to receive the promises of God - do you think salvation is not included in the promises of God? The author then bolsters this claim with Scripture (Habakkuk 2:3-4)…
38…my just one shall live by faith, and IF HE DRAWS BACK I take no pleasure in him."
How can one “live” by faith and then “draw back” so that the Father will take no pleasure in him??? How can someone who is alive by faith and a partaker of the gift of eternal life - irrevocably, in your theology *- * be found other than perfect in the eyes of God? Your explanations to date don’t begin to explain how this could be.
Then the author goes on to say…“We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and WILL possess life”
Interesting - even though they have faith (present tense) the author chooses to place the promise of promise of God (life) into the future tense. Have faith now, will have life in the future.
apo:
Entangles us? So what? Why is this an issue for someone who has nothing less than the fullness of life in Christ through faith alone? You’re on the slippery slope to works righteousness…
apo:
Discipline with no bite whatsoever. Lets be real - if the person has the irrevocable fullness of eternal life which is none other than the full participation in the Way, Truth and Life; Jesus Christ, I dont think they will care too much about “discipline” here on earth. Especially with all the temporal pleasure that sin provides to our fallen nature. If you think this “discipline” is something that will impact their eternal future negatively, then your concept of the completeness of salvation through faith alone is not standing on its own…again.
apo:
Its impossible to create this dichotomy and remain true to the entirety of Scripture, for those who are in Christ are created for the good works that God has prepared in advance for them to walk in.
More to say, no more time, sorry - maybe later…
A
apophasis
Guest
Odell said:
The context is salvation. Jn. 6:29 "Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."Paul taught nothing differently on his missionary journeys:Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…"To “believe” is to trust in what He did for you. The “work of God” is that you believe in His Son alone.
The work of God for your salvation is that you believe.
Mike made reference to Heb. 12:14:"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."He interpreted that verse as meaning the pursuit of it saves. But one must not confuse the sanctification itself (there are actually three kinds of sanctification in the Bible) with our pursuing it. God in His Word does not say that no man shall see the Lord except those who have pursued sanctification. But He does say that no man without that sanctification will see the Lord. Don’t misread the passage.
This quite straightforward, Odell. Men are required only to “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ” to be saved (Eph. 2:8-9). Salvation is based totally on the work of Another, it is not a divine process ultimately completed through us. It is the norm that the saved will do works, in fact they are “created in Christ Jesus” that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10). How “good” we walk in them will be determined later at the “judgment seat of Christ” and rewarded - or not (1 Cor. 3:12-15).
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Well Odell, I have answered all your questions, I hope to your satisfaction. Thank you for your patience.
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