Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[mdcpensive1]

Philthy,

I have enjoyed your comments to apo because they are concise and to the point. They are also theological.
If OSAS is the correct interpretation of the Gospel, then all that would be needed in scripture is a few sentences. However, scripture is much more extensive than just a few sentences, it is very much more robust in it’s content. That means that God has much to tell us about Himself, how we should live and what we need to believe (at least from the written word portion). To disregard portions of scripture as some OSAS persons do is very disingenuous to a God who died for us in order that we may be able to live those scriptures as He intended.

mdcpensive1

 

[HailMary]

If OSAS were true, what is the purpose of God’s judgment after we die?

2 Cor 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body**, whether good or evil.

**
Also, if OSAS were true, tell me, how will God reward you for doing evil?**

 

[Sean_Boyle]

True believers are a heaven bound people. Though now completely saved we are not yet glorified. Experientially we live our lives here on earth, but it is divinely revealed that positionally we have died with Christ and have been raised up with Him and seated with in the heavenly:Eph 2:4-6 “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,”

Col. 3:1-3 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."Eternal life is in the Son (1 Jn. 5:9-13). He who believes is now “in Christ” seated at the right hand of God with Him. It’s our inherited position and it is reserved in heaven with Christ.

If you endure to the end…

 

[japhy]

Eternal life is in the Son (1 Jn. 5:9-13). He who believes is now “in Christ” seated at the right hand of God with Him. It’s our inherited position and it is reserved in heaven with Christ.

Care to explain how a believer is “now … seated at the right hand of God” when it’s clear the believer is walking around here on earth? How do you reconcile that with the refusal of the Catholic belief the Jesus is truly and really present in the Eucharist, even though he is at the right hand of the Father in heaven also?

We can be on earth and in at God’s right hand at the same time, but not Jesus Christ?

Or have I misunderstood your statement? Did you mean “he who believes is now ‘in Christ [who is seated at the right of God]’”?

 

[MotherNoRest]

To Sean Boyle:

Don’t know who is Catholic around here and who is not. I am not sure which end of the debate that some people are trying to argue.

I am Catholic.

I often hear Protestants quote Ephesians 2:8-9 or some parts nearby, but don’t think I often hear them quote Ephesians 2:10 which says that we are created by God for good works. This passage emphasizes the fact that only by grace are we able to persist in our good works. It is always by God’s grace that we can overcome any sin and do His will. It isn’t our own devices - but it IS our own free will choice to do good and avoid evil.

But if we refuse this grace and end up sinning grievously, we can lose our salvation. The Bible is pretty clear on that.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

To Sean Boyle:

Don’t know who is Catholic around here and who is not. I am not sure which end of the debate that some people are trying to argue.

I am Catholic.

I often hear Protestants quote Ephesians 2:8-9 or some parts nearby, but don’t think I often hear them quote Ephesians 2:10 which says that we are created by God for good works. This passage emphasizes the fact that only by grace are we able to persist in our good works. It is always by God’s grace that we can overcome any sin and do His will. It isn’t our own devices - but it IS our own free will choice to do good and avoid evil.

But if we refuse this grace and end up sinning grievously, we can lose our salvation. The Bible is pretty clear on that.

I agree. The Bible is very clear on that point.

 

[mikeledes]

He interpreted that verse as meaning the pursuit of it saves. But one must not confuse the sanctification itself (there are actually three kinds of sanctification in the Bible) with our pursuing it. God in His Word does not say that no man shall see the Lord except those who have pursued sanctification. But He does say that no man without that sanctification will see the Lord. Don’t misread the passage.

If you have it as a permanent possession, Apophasis, you don’t have to pursue it. You don’t pursue something you already have.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

Actually, national Israel as a whole were not cut off, Apophasis. Only those Israelites that did not believe were cut off. The Jewish believers remain on the olive tree:

Yes, those individual Jewish believers are called the “remnant” in verse 5. They are identified as part of the Church Christ is building during this present age and will continue to build until “the fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (11:25b).

But Israel, as a nation, was “broken off” and had been set aside. God has not been dealing with the Jews as a nation but as individuals.

But when the Church is taken up to be with Christ then God will again deal with the Jews as a nation to fulfill His unconditional covenants and prophetic promises with them. And as Paul says, if their transgression (unbelief) be riches for the world (salvation coming to the world), and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, “how much more will their fulfillment be?” (vss. 11-12). "For If their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (vs. 15).

Contrary to you Amillennialists, God is not finished with national Israel, nor has the Church replaced her. Actually, the parable of the prodigal son is more of a spiritual picture of national Israel.

Mike, as an Amillennialist you’ll never understand Romans eleven. Your error is presuppositional.Rom 11:24-26 For if you (Gentiles) were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery – so that you will not be wise in your own estimation – that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (i.e., to the Church); and so all Israel will be saved;You cannot understand Romans eleven when as an Amillennialist you spiritualize away, and, or, ignore all the O.T. covenants and prophetic promises God made with national Israel.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Mike, as an Amillennialist you’ll never understand Romans eleven. Your error is presuppositional.

Since it must be okay point out errors…

Apop you as a protestant you’ll never understand the whole context of the bible, the word of Christ, his Church nor the work of the cross. Your error is assuming salvation upon yourself when it is God that will judge you according to the christian life you’ve led at the end of your life, never before.

 

[Odell]

originally posted by apo
Heb. 3:14 is stating that it is not the fence sitters that become “partakers of Christ” but those who have a true, committed, personal faith in Him.

I agree you agree.

lets see what the verse says again.

(Heb 3:12-14) “We have become PARTNERS of Christ (Saved) if only WE hold the beginning of the REALITY firm until the end.”

We me and you could very well say we are partners of christ right?
well we could also say that WE me and you need to hold that reality firm until the end.

So you agree that we should hold this reality of our partnership in Christ till the end. Our true committed, personal faith in Him as some like to put it. we must hold on to it, that reality. If we dont we dont have a true committed personal faith in Him any more because we did not hold on to it until the end. OSAS

Unless this Reality that we should hold firm till the end is not our partnership. But your going to have to do alot of convincing to prove that one

 

[Odell]

Posted by me
(Heb10:24-31) “Do you not think that a **much worse punishment **is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant blood by which he **was consecrated **and insults the spirit of Grace.”

If one is saved by the blood of Jesus and later goes on to insult God by diminishing the power of Jesus’ blood, then the scripture says that punishment will be severe. You will become separated from God and his saving grace

#5 If so how do you interpret this verse? .

In verse 29 he is addressing those fence sitting Jews among them who have not yet made a full committment of faith in the Messiah, but desire to revert back to the sacrificial system of the Law. He is not addressing true believers. “Who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant” is not the response of a true believer.

AGAIN, he is addrssing and warning the “fence sitters” among them. Those among them who have not made a full committment to Christ by faith alone. Keep this in mind when reading all the warnings in the Book of Hebrews.One who is dead and lost is not in need of “reconciliation.” Reconciliation is between enemies. If one is “dead” he needs life. If one is “lost” he needs direction. Not reconciliation.

FENCE SITTERS are not consecrated to the blood of Christ:doh2:

The parable is not about the salvation of a sinner, but the GRACE and LOVE of a father toward his son.

Thats salvation. any other time in the bible your definition would be different on lost and dead. lost and dead means exactly what it says.

 

[Odell]

Paul is stating in Rom. 11 that national Israel was “broken off” from its position of privilege because of its national unbelief in their Messiah. And because of its being “broken off” for unbelief, God has turned, temporarily, to the Gentiles with the gospel of Christ to be believed.

For the past 2000 years the Gentiles have enjoyed a position of privilege (along with individual, believing Jews) while national Israel has been set aside. During this time Christ has been building His Church, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles.

The warning Paul is presenting in Rom. 11 is that just as national Israel was “broken off” from the nourishment of the “holy root,” you Gentiles also will be “broken off” from the position of privilege you’ve been enjoying if, as a people, you too abandon the faith:Rom. 11:13 "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Rom 11:19-21 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (national Israel, because of unbelief), He will not spare you (Gentile people), either."We know prophetically that the Gentile nations will eventually follow Antichrist. And we know prophetically that God restores national Israel back to Himself. And this is what Paul discloses briefly in Rom. 11:25-29.

Romans eleven has nothing to do with individual believers losing their salvation. As long as you see it that way you will not understand the important teaching of that chapter.“You” is always referring generally to Gentiles as a people: You Gentiles.Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first (Israel); since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.Paul is not saying here that ALL Jews refused to believe. As you certainly know, many individual Jews did and do today and are part of the Body of Christ, the Church He is presently building (Matt. 16:18).

But remember, it is revealed here in chapter eleven that it was because national Israel was set aside (broken off) in unbelief that the Gentiles, as a people, were put into a position of privilege with the gospel message. Israel, nationally, ceased in 70 A.D. However, she is back as a nation and in her ancient homeland today. And the Gentile nations have become more and more hostile toward the saving message of Christ as well as arrogant toward the newly established nation of Israel.

We are nearing the end of this Church age (the “fulness of the Gentiles,” Rom. 11:25b) when the Church will be taken up to be with her Lord, and God will again turn to national Israel to fulfill ALL the unconditional covenants and prophetic promises He made with that nation (Rom. 11:23, 29). Culminating with the return of her Messiah and King to rule over this present earth (Rev. 19), sitting on His father David’s throne (Lk. 1:32-33) from Jerusalem (Rom. 11:26-27): His future, earthly, Millennial Kingdom (Rev. 20:1-3).

I have just one thing to say.

(Romens 11:20-22) "that is so they were broken off because of unbelife, but YOU are ther because of faith. So do not become haughty but stand in awe. for if God did not spare the natural branches he will not spare YOU either. See then the kindness and severity of God severity towards those who fell but Gods kindness to YOU, provided YOU remain in his kindness otherwise YOU too will be cut off.

you cant be cut off what you are not part of.

 

[Odell]

The context is salvation. Jn. 6:29 "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

but that is not it.

Paul (Eph 2:810). “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.” It says we should. And we know why we should with the rest of Paul’s teachings. “Eternal life to those who persevere in good works.” I also note the passage “works God has prepared in us”. These works are the will of the Father that we should be doing.

God prepared them and we SHOULD, he does not leave us an option.

(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who **does the will **of my Father in heaven.” The works he has prepared in us are His will.

Gods will is not just faith!

[Men are required only to "*believe in the Lord Jesus Christ

" to be saved (Eph. 2:8-9).

the bible does not say ONLY

Catholics agree with this passage from Ephesians. No man should boast of works because it is Jesus who is working through us. It is not on our own accord. No one should boast. We give it all to Jesus

your verse does nothing but suppot us.

Salvation is based totally on the work of Another, it is not a divine process ultimately completed through us.

Really could you teach me this profound wisdom of apophasis.

I hope you see Im being SARCASTIC! Its not like I dont trust fully in Jesus.
:banghead:

It is the norm that the saved will do works, in fact they are “created in Christ Jesus” that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10).

These normal Christians must be Catholic

Im glad you finally come to the understanding that what we do was created in Christ Jesus.

know im going to go show the world I have saving faith! And that im normal. And that its Christ working threw me.
peace.

=================

Well Odell, I have answered all your questions, I hope to your satisfaction. Thank you for your patience.

Your welcome but remember its just your failable interpritation. You could be wrong.

I believe in One Holy Catholic Church. Who has the fullness of truth. Thank Jesus.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, those individual Jewish believers are called the “remnant” in verse 5. They are identified as part of the Church Christ is building during this present age and will continue to build until “the fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (11:25b).

But Israel, as a nation, was “broken off” and had been set aside. God has not been dealing with the Jews as a nation but as individuals.

But when the Church is taken up to be with Christ then God will again deal with the Jews as a nation to fulfill His unconditional covenants and prophetic promises with them. And as Paul says, if their transgression (unbelief) be riches for the world (salvation coming to the world), and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, “how much more will their fulfillment be?” (vss. 11-12). "For If their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (vs. 15).

Contrary to you Amillennialists, God is not finished with national Israel, nor has the Church replaced her. Actually, the parable of the prodigal son is more of a spiritual picture of national Israel.

Mike, as an Amillennialist you’ll never understand Romans eleven. Your error is presuppositional.Rom 11:24-26 For if you (Gentiles) were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery – so that you will not be wise in your own estimation – that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (i.e., to the Church); and so all Israel will be saved;You cannot understand Romans eleven when as an Amillennialist you spiritualize away, and, or, ignore all the O.T. covenants and prophetic promises God made with national Israel.

Apohasis, your entire explanation is blown away by one little verse:

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

The only Gentiles that can stand by their faith are believing Gentiles (i.e. those who actually have faith). Believing Gentiles can only refer to Christians. Also note how Paul contrasts the unbelief of the Israelites with the faith of Gentile Christians. And if they stand by their faith, why should they fear? They cannot be cut off, according to you, if they have faith because once saved always saved.

And for your information, I do not believe God has abandoned the Jews. There will be a mass conversion of Jews before the coming of Christ. That is what this verse is talking about. Moreover, there are plenty of amillenialists (Reformed/Calvinists) who believe in OSAS and thus must have their own explanation of Romans 11. The Bible Answerman is also a OSAS amillenialist.

Let me give you a passage to think about:

**3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” **

Romans 2:28-29

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

God bless,
Michael

 

[dbaseII]

The best answer I saw for this one was on EWTN by a convert - who was also a psychologist.

He pointed out that if he was saved and then, later committed a mortal sin, he would know he did not have saving Faith (because a saved person could not do that).

So essentially, he continued, you never know if you have saving Faith or not until the end of your life.

“Sounds a lot like what the Catholics teach about salvation not being certain until hour of death, doesn’t it!” He concluded.

Great talk!!!

Sue

 

[apophasis]

Apohasis, your entire explanation is blown away by one little verse:

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

Which means that Gentiles, as a people, must do what Isreal did not: come to God by FAITH alone. It’s that simple.

And for your information, I do not believe God has abandoned the Jews.

I didn’t say you did. Amillennialism is based on the false notion that God is finished with NATIONAL ISRAEL. That ISRAEL has been replaced with the Church.

There will be a mass conversion of Jews before the coming of Christ. That is what this verse is talking about.

No it’s not. “And thus ALL ISRAEL will be saved” (Rom. 11:26) is referring to the nation. There is a remnant of Jews that comes out of the great “Tribulation” referred to in Matt. 24:21 (cf. Joel 2:1-2; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9) as believers in Messiah Jesus (Zech. 12:10), and as a NATION will be ushered into Christ’s Millennial Kingdom at His second advent (Matt. 24:29). These believing Jews make up the nation of Israel at the beginning of Christ’s earthly, Millennial Kingdom.

Moreover, there are plenty of amillenialists (Reformed/Calvinists) who believe in OSAS and thus must have their own explanation of Romans 11. The Bible Answerman is also a OSAS amillenialist.

H.H., like all Amillennialists, errors in his interpretation of Rom. 11. H.H. is excellent in many theological areas and in dealing with the cults. But he utterly fails in eschatology because he too approaches it with a false presupposition. What can I say?

Let me give you a passage to think about:

3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

Romans 2:28-29

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

You really think these verses are new to me, Mike? Both are speaking to and of Jews. Neither speak of Gentiles becoming spiritual Jews. Neither speak of Israel being replaced by the Church.

 

[apophasis]

Catholics agree with this passage from Ephesians. No man should boast of works because it is Jesus who is working through us. It is not on our own accord. No one should boast. We give it all to Jesus

It’s not the works that are created in Christ Jesus, but those who are saved by GRACE through FAITH alone (Eph. 2:8-9). They’re saved “not as a result of works” but by divine GRACE through FAITH. No works allowed on the part of the saved means saved through “faith alone.” :extrahappy:

It is the saved, newly created in Christ Jesus (no longer in Adam), who are to perform the works prepared for them. But they were saved by GRACE through FAITH alone. And the fact they were saved does not allow for the false notion that salvation is a process completed by men. It is through faith alone because it is God Himself who saves the one who puts his faith in what Jesus Himself completed, once for all, on our behalf through His substitutionary, sacrificial death.

Don’t distort the passage, Odell, just to satisfy your own religious philosophy. The passage is very clear. Salvation is completely apart from works, even those God might perform through the believer. God saves based on Christ’s work alone. Nothing else.

 

[apophasis]

Since it must be okay point out errors…

Apop you as a protestant you’ll never understand the whole context of the bible, the word of Christ, his Church nor the work of the cross. Your error is assuming salvation upon yourself when it is God that will judge you according to the christian life you’ve led at the end of your life, never before.

If God is going to eternally save me or damn me at the end of my life based on “the Christian life” I’ve led, then you and I have two very different “gospels.” Mine of faith, yours of works.

 

[apophasis]

If you have it as a permanent possession, Apophasis, you don’t have to pursue it. You don’t pursue something you already have.

God Bless,
Michael

Sure you do Mike. You pursue experientially that which is already yours postionally (in Christ) until the day comes when that which is our eternal position becomes experientially our condition (see Phil. 3:20-21).

 

[Church_Militant]

It’s not the works that are created in Christ Jesus, but those who are saved by GRACE through FAITH alone (Eph. 2:8-9). They’re saved "not

as a result of works" but by divine GRACE through FAITH. No works allowed on the part of the saved means saved through "faith alone." You can believe that if you want to but it is not scriptural. And when I say that I mean not in the context of the entire New Testament.

One of the most glaring passages that refutes that is Matthew 25:31-46. “…35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me…40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” and “…42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

It is the saved, newly created in Christ Jesus (no longer in Adam), who are to perform the works prepared for them. But they were saved by GRACE through FAITH alone.

there’s an awful lot of scripture that refutes this…Acts 2:38 & 22:16. and the passage that I just cited above.

If you tell me that what we do has no bearing on our salvation, I’ll have to tell you that I can’t accept that based on the Word of God.

And the fact they were saved does not allow for the false notion that salvation is a process

completed by men.Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that “salvation is a process completed by men.” It is a process and a race and a battle, it is completed by God’s grace. That grace is freely given and just as you teach that one one comes to Christ by cooperating with (accepting that) grace…so also do we finish the race.

It is through faith alone because it is God Himself who saves the one who puts his faith in what Jesus Himself completed, once for all

, on our behalf through His substitutionary, sacrificial death.Definition is correct. Terminology is dead wrong. Not Sola Fide, but you describe the Catholic teaching on faith in salvation.

Don’t distort the passage, Odell, just to satisfy your own religious philosophy. The passage is very clear. Salvation is completely apart from works, even those God might perform through

the believer. God saves based on Christ’s work alone. Nothing else.Don’t distort the passage, apophasis, just to satisfy your own religious philosophy.

The bolded statement is gross error, and as I showed above, not supported by the Word of God.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.