Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[Philthy]

Apo et al:

I had a feeling this post was untouchable…no replies at all? Were my arguments really that forceful?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2321139&postcount=415

 

[Odell]

But its not the “prepared works” that save you. Paul just got through saying, by grace through faith you have been SAVED (past tense, a “done deal”),

weare save by our faith but not fatih alone I dont see that in the verse I do see we are not saved by works. I believe that too. I believe we need both to have a saving faith.

do you have a saving faith? How? Saving faith is not faith alone.
we have works that are created in Jesus we should be doing.
SHOULD. your telling me I dont have to and the bible tells me I SHOULD

past tense is not a done deal if you can lose it.

Salvation is not a wage due but a divine gift,

So is your faith and so is my faith and works agreed?

God loved you and sent His Son, not that you might love so that He might save you.

show me the passage where the bible says Jesus came to save us and that we DONT have to love

I want to see that passage

God does not save based on your love, but your FAITH

ONLY FAITH WORKING THREW LOVE COUNTS FOR ANYTHING

You have a real problem with this dont you?

You need to notice it is those already saved and created in Christ Jesus for whom the “good” works are prepared.

You need to notice that God has prepared Good works even in those who dont have faith in him, in those who are not created in Christ Jesus.

simply believe in God, but believe what He has done FOR YOU through His Son - alone. Such a faith is not so easy, as domonstrated over and over again on this thread by you (plural) who continually resist His grace. You want nothing to do with it.That narrow road leads to the cross.

man your killing me

feeding the hungry giving drink to the thirsty, welcoming the stranger, clothing the naked caring for the ill, visiting the in prisoned. Such a path is not so easy as demonstrated over and over by people like you who try to avoid doing the extreem that Jesus calls us to do.

It is you who resist His grace by not doing the will of God You want nothing to do with the extreem you want the easy route.

Few, indeed, desire to go down it. They’d rather go their own way, they want salvation on their own terms. But all other ways lead to destruction. Salvation is only by way of His cross (not ours).

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

What the cross did for us has nothing to do with what we should be doing after all we muxt pick up our crosses.

You did not answer what I asked in regard to the once for all sacrafice

how come not all men are saved?

also you said

In verse 29 he is addressing those fence sitting Jews among them who have not yet made a full committment of faith in the Messiah, but desire to revert back to the sacrificial system of the Law. He is not addressing true believers. “Who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant” is not the response of a true believer.

AGAIN, he is addrssing and warning the “fence sitters” among them. Those among them who have not made a full committment to Christ by faith alone. Keep this in mind when reading all the warnings in the Book of Hebrews.One who is dead and lost is not in need of “reconciliation.” Reconciliation is between enemies. If one is “dead” he needs life. If one is “lost” he needs direction. Not reconciliation.

I said

FENCE SITTERS are not consecrated to the blood of Christ:thumbsup:

Are you in agreement?

but one based totally on the redemptive work of Another. :extrahappy: A work that only He could do.

thats why I love being Catholic.

I believe this 100% but people like you cant get it threw there hard heads. Makes my fatih much stronger.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

If God is going to eternally save me or damn me at the end of my life based on “the Christian life” I’ve led, then you and I have two very different “gospels.” Mine of faith, yours of works.

You’ve been corrected on this faulty understanding of the “work salvation” several time by several different posters including me.

I and perhaps all the poster are left to wonder why you continue to bear false witness to “try” to bring people to your way of thinking. Why isn’t God’s intended understanding good enough for you? Why do you add the word “alone” when quoting scripture? It’s not there.

Talking to you is like talking to a JW. I can point out the references to the deity of Christ in scripture to a JW yet they can’t see it because they are guided by a “better” faith, a more proud faith.

You’ve been shown biblical references the prove OSAS is an invented tradition of man, it is not even implied in the bible. With the same results as above.

 

[apophasis]

Point #1 I came up with the idea that you somehow stated the idea of Purgatory by your words when you said that we are saved but not yet glorified.

Divine salvation through faith in Jesus Christ involves the whole person: body, soul and spirit.

At present the soul and spirit of a true believer are redeemed and he/she is postionally seen by God as having died (co-crucified) with Christ, raised to new life in Him (co-resurrected), and now seated in the heavenly with Him (see Rom. 6: Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-4). For this reason Paul asks the mundane question:Rom. 6:2 "How shall we who died to sin (i.e. with Christ), still live in it?"But experientially we (the saved) live out our lives here on earth waiting for what is called the “redemption of our bodies.” A promise guaranteed by the believer having been “sealed” by the Holy Spirit until that "day of redemption."Eph 4:30 “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption” (cf. Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Cor. 5:5)The glorification which those of saving faith anticipate is not entrance into heaven because his soul has been scrubbed clean of venial sins through personal sufferings in Purgatory on their part, but when Christ, who has the power, will transform their humble bodies into conformity with His own:Phil. 3:20-21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.In divine salvation there is no room for a doctrine like Purgatory. Such doctrines can creep in only when there is a lack of “saving faith.”

This is the same as if someone dies but does not yet have the holiness to be in the presence of God.

Doesn’t have the holiness to be in the presence of God? Not according to Scripture! Those with saving faith are called “saints” which literally means, "holy ones."1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:"Those with saving faith are “holy ones” because they are now “sanctified in Christ Jesus.” You can’t get more holier than that. The saved are made holy being now in the resurrected Christ. His holiness is their holiness.

But if your explaination is about being holy enough now to be in the presence of God, then you must be an extremely quality individual who has removed the problems others have with our disordered tendencies to sin. IMPRESSIVE! Tell me how you did it and don’t give me the response that God did it on the Cross for you since others in the same boat as you and I and they don’t act in holiness all the time and God died on the same Cross for us also.

One cannot go into the presence of God by acting holy, one must BE holy. You see, mdc, what your religious faith lacks IS the cross of Christ. Exemplified by your words:"Tell me how you did it and don’t give me the response that God did it on the Cross"It’s amazing how those with religious faith want to avoid the cross of Christ, the very means by which God has the power to forever purify and save a sinner made holy in Christ.

 

[apophasis]

Point #2 “Your arguments are based on salvation by faith alone”. If you can only be saved by faith alone, can you tell me how someone who has never heard of Christ can be saved or an infant who never reaches the age of reason can be saved, or for that matter, someone who has a developmental problem and cannot properly reason to make a committment of faith? Can they be saved without faith according to your theory?

The gospel of the cross of Christ is presented to those who have the capacity to believe. God has not given us specific revelation concerning those who don’t have that capacity. I don’t question Him on what He has not revealed. But I do believe Him on what He has.Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us…”

Point #3 “All scripture is written FOR you but not all scripture is written ABOUT you” and " one cannot draw from ALL scriptures if one wants to understand salvation…" Where did you get the idea that only part of scripture concerns an individual. I understand now how you come up with the answers you have. It is the “pick and choose method”.

Mdc, do you go to Jerusalem to sacrifice? Have you been stoned, or have you stoned others, because they did not observe a complete rest from their labors on Saturaday?

And concerning OSAS was taught by the early Church and even before Peter went to Rome, hogwash. If it were ever taught, it would have been a heresy and their would be a multitude of writings about it as was for pelagianism and arianism. It just ain’t so. If you have proof of what you say their will be many people who have posted that would enjoy seeing it.

Well, I won’t get into the controversy of Peter being the Bishop of Rome, but:

Jesus:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Paul:Rom. 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Peter:1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."John:1 John 5:10-13 "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."These were being preached by Christ and His Apostles from the beginning. It’s men who have moved away from these truths.

 

[apophasis]

Apo et al:I had a feeling this post was untouchable…no replies at all? Were my arguments really that forceful?

Oh yes, Phil, I speak for myself and the “et al,” that your impeccable logic, as always, is quite unapproachable. We stand in awe of it and, as you can see, in complete silence! :bowdown2:

 

[mikeledes]

Oh yes, Phil, I speak for myself and the “et al,” that your impeccable logic, as always, is quite unapproachable. We stand in awe of it and, as you can see, in complete silence! :bowdown2:

You finally said something I can agree with!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Oh yes, Phil, I speak for myself and the “et al,” that your impeccable logic, as always, is quite unapproachable. We stand in awe of it and, as you can see, in complete silence! :bowdown2:

Having a well formed conscience in the Church seems to make everything you say that disproves OSAS, Unapproachable.

The complete silence is a blessing. Usually the followers of OSAS (its like another religion for them) try to back up their personal beliefs with out of context scripture and saying things like this scriptural author is more important than another to justify their own personal beliefs.

God’s true intent is perfect. We certainly don’t need to have OSAS added by others to make it perfect.

 

[nerfherder]

You’ve been corrected on this faulty understanding of the “work salvation” several time by several different posters including me.

I and perhaps all the poster are left to wonder why you continue to bear false witness to “try” to bring people to your way of thinking. Why isn’t God’s intended understanding good enough for you? Why do you add the word “alone” when quoting scripture? It’s not there.

Talking to you is like talking to a JW. I can point out the references to the deity of Christ in scripture to a JW yet they can’t see it because they are guided by a “better” faith, a more proud faith.

You’ve been shown biblical references the prove OSAS is an invented tradition of man, it is not even implied in the bible. With the same results as above.

Boy have we got ‘bias’ here: ‘false witness’, ‘like talking to a JW’, ‘a more proud faith’.

This kind of provocation makes the whole discussion shabby.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Boy have we got ‘bias’ here: ‘false witness’, ‘like talking to a JW’, ‘a more proud faith’.

This kind of provocation makes the whole discussion shabby.

If someones uses a false understanding of Christ’s Church, but has been corrected many times in many threads but still refuses to admit the error, and continues the use of the corrected falsehood in the discussion, what would you do? My faith, the Faith of Christ, is being judged and and described to others with untruths and half truths, wrongly What would you say?

If I started saying that “protestants pray to their bibles as if it were God”, and said that in discussions twenty to thirty times and refused to see the error of that statement from discussion with people of the protestant faith but continued to say it as if my belief were a fact and were given to me in some a private revealation by God. Then what would you say?

Where did “shabby” begin?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

If someones uses a false understanding of Christ’s Church, but has been corrected many times in many threads but still refuses to admit the error, and continues the use of the corrected falsehood in the discussion, what would you do? My faith, the Faith of Christ, is being judged and and described to others with untruths and half truths, wrongly What would you say?

If I started saying that “protestants pray to their bibles as if it were God”, and said that in discussions twenty to thirty times and refused to see the error of that statement from discussion with people of the protestant faith but continued to say it as if my belief were a fact and were given to me in some a private revealation by God. Then what would you say?

Where did “shabby” begin?

I do lose patience with the style of argument used by some protestants on this board. They don’t seem to be able to understand reason or logic. If they did understand, this discussion would have been over 20 pages ago.

Much of what they say is only backed up with rhetoric and noise.

The “old bait and which” tactic seems to rein supreme with them to stay in the discussion. This same old “catholics believe in a works salvation” is the current bait when the discussion from the Catholic viewpoint makes to much sense.

I assume that since they use a lot of rhetoric and cheap jabs at the Faith of Christ, that must be what they “do” understand.

Just trying to make in-roads.

 

[nerfherder]

If someones uses a false understanding of Christ’s Church, but has been corrected many times in many threads but still refuses to admit the error, and continues the use of the corrected falsehood in the discussion, what would you do? My faith, the Faith of Christ, is being judged and and described to others with untruths and half truths, wrongly What would you say?

If I started saying that “protestants pray to their bibles as if it were God”, and said that in discussions twenty to thirty times and refused to see the error of that statement from discussion with people of the protestant faith but continued to say it as if my belief were a fact and were given to me in some a private revealation by God. Then what would you say?

Where did “shabby” begin?

I am sorry to have seemed brutal Sean, but I believe that the idea of ‘correcting’ someone else’s belief system is not my prerogative or responsibility. Nor is it incumbent upon The Other - however much you disagree with him, however much you believe him to be in error - to accept your instruction.

What would I do? I would ignore anyone who so consistently gets up the noses of a lot of people on the Forum. He is not going to change, and one only descends to the same level by arguing. At the same time, you are not going to change either.

It is a problem of belief in Absolute Truth, and ownership of Absolute Truth, no? There is no room for accommodation on either side, and it seems to me that your putting a point and then leaving it is appropriate and dignified. If you are sure of your faith, and the manifestations of your faith, you do not have to argue a single misguided point, but can move on with the discussion which has merit.

We do not all have the same mental landscapes, and we do not all have the same life experiences. I have learned to leave well enough alone in a case like this. But perhaps I am preaching to the converted. I went through hell on this Forum dealing with problems like this, and learned I had to let go. What does it matter? And it only puts a traumatic mess on your head, not his.

And anyway, you both have the right to your opinions about the validity of aspects of your individual faiths. I think that each Christian - Catholic and otherwise - carries around a bag of belief-bits, garnered during a lifetime, sometimes on a purely random basis. I think there is a real lack of consistency within the Church, which has often presented itself as fallible and monolithic. The fact is that there are all different kinds of ‘faith’ within the Church, as well as the differences between Catholics, protestants, moral non-Christians and people of other faiths. There is no attack here on your faith.

Let It Be.

In Christ

 

[Michael_Francis]

Please stay on topic and maintain the height of charity or this thread will be closed.
MF

 

[mdcpensive1]

Apostasis, thank you for a very good post. Your answers are good from your point of view. I apologise for saying “hogwash”. I must have been under the influence of original sin. I know you are a person of faith and my “buddy” in Christ.
Give me a little time to reply since you put a lot on the table to answer. I have an appointment to meet with my fiance in planning our marriage and an one of my accounting clients needs help very bad, and then there is my regular job,etc.

Talk to you soon,
mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

Apophasis, in order to communicate I believe that it is important for me to understand another’s beliefs and terminology. As I understand, your belief is that having faith in Christ Jesus is what is called “saving faith” and that because of this, nothing else can effect salvation. Is this correct?

If it is, then can you come to the conclusion that salvation is a one time thing, human works have no bearing on Christ’s work and that the Church is just a group of people who say they believe in Christ but have different opinions on what that means and what they should do about it? Is my understanding correct about what you believe?

I need to know so I can honestly and accurately reply to your last post to me.

mdcpensive1

 

[apophasis]

mdcpensive1:

Apophasis, in order to communicate I believe that it is important for me to understand another’s beliefs and terminology. As I understand, your belief is that having faith in Christ Jesus is what is called “saving faith” and that because of this, nothing else can effect salvation. Is this correct?

It is correct to the degree that in the Scriptures salvation is presented as a divine “gift” (God is the One who does the saving), "by grace through faith."Eph. 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…”

2 Tim 1:8-9 "Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with {me} in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us (how? Through a church or any earthly institution? NO!) in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:4-5 "But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, He saved us (a done-deal), not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy,“Saving faith,” the faith through which God Himself saves a sinner, has content. That content being the Person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf for personal salvation.

Saving faith is not a faith simply in the historicity of Christ. A personal belief in the fact that He existed. Nor is it an intellectual agreement with religious creeds often recited as a mantra beginning with “I believe in….” Saving faith is a personal trust in the, once for all, substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the once for all divine forgiveness of ALL sins. And by the power of that, once for all time, substitutionary sacrifice, the believer trusts that God has forever saved him from eternal damnation.Rom 8:31 "What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

If it is, then can you come to the conclusion that salvation is a one time thing, human works have no bearing on Christ’s work

Yes. God is the One who saves, and He does not save based ANY works done by man, before or after he has trusted in Christ’s redemptive work alone.

and that the Church is just a group of people who say they believe in Christ but have different opinions on what that means and what they should do about it?

The true, invisible Church Christ is building at this present time is not made up of those who “say” they believe in Christ (i.e., a “said” faith), but of those who truly have believed the divine message concerning the Son and what He has accomplished sacrificially, once for all, on their behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). It (Christ’s Church) is made up only of those who have come to the cross empty handed. They brought nothing (knowing they had nothing to add), but “freely” received everything. The true Church is made up of those who truly “have been saved” by GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). They don’t have opinions on what it means, nor do they wonder what they should do about it. They simply "walk by faith."2 Cor 5:7 "…for we walk by faith, not by sight"Any works accomplished by them during their faith walk are because of - not for - salvation. Salvation faith is passive (i.e., trusts totally and only in the work of Another), but one’s walk by faith is not. He flees ungodliness and aggressively pursues righteousness.1 Tim 6:11 "But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance {and} gentleness.

Is my understanding correct about what you believe?

You tell me. Is it?

I need to know so I can honestly and accurately reply to your last post to me.

Well, this should help. You might want to read through my previous posts on this thread.

Let me ask you a direct question, if I may. Whether you agree or not with what I wrote, does Catholicism lead a man to the kind of “salvation faith” I described above?

 

[dcana]

I’m sorry to just jump in here like this but I’ve been following this discussion for a while and just wanted to put in my two cents worth, for what it’s worth. It may have already been stated but I believe the reason that we cannot know with absolute certainty that we have “saving faith” is that we are not the judge of our own souls, God is. We are fallible, fallen, error-prone humans who often deceive ourselves concerning just about any matter, and God is infinitely perfect, knowing, and just. He alone can judge our souls. He alone knows what graces He has given us and which ones we have used or rejected. Read St. Paul from 1 Cor 4: “So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.” (NIV) If you think you know your own motives for doing things perfectly well, you are better than me. Come to think of it, if you claimed this, I would not believe you. Paul says, “I do not judge myself…It is the Lord who judges me.” He also says, as I’m sure you all know, in chapter 9: “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.” Why is Paul afraid of being disqualified? 1. Because he does not know the future and 2. He knows that God the ultimate judge, not himself. I recommend to anyone to read on New Advent the two excellent articles concerning Justification and (Sanctifying) Grace, as understood by both Catholics and Protestants. They are lengthy but well worth the time in reading. I still have to read most of the article on Justification. After reading the one on Grace, I realize that my own understanding of “Sola Fide” was mistaken. This Protestant doctrine and the Catholic teaching that we are not saved by faith alone both refer to the initial justification/salvation of a person, that is, when they first come to believe in Christ. Whether the individual then goes on to enter heaven or not is quite another matter entirely. I think many people confuse these two issues. Although, of course, if you believe in “once saved, always saved,” then you believe this second question is not one that applies to you. It is then that these words apply, “The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.” (Rv 20) For my part, I hope to enter heaven and I have great hope, because I know we have a most merciful God. I recently heard of an evangelical sarcastically asking a Catholic, “If you were to die tonight, do you believe you would go to heaven?” I’ve been thinking of what I would say when God asked me why He should let me in. This is what I’ve come up with: “Because I love you and believe in your mercy and love for me and because I have done my best to follow you.” Will I be able to honestly say this when my time comes? I do not know. I hope so. There is also an excellent (and unbiased, as far as I can tell) book on this fundamental issue by James Akin, called “The Salvation Controversy.”

Peace

 

[mdcpensive1]

to dcana

Thanks for the post. I have the book by Jimmy Akin and I tried to read it once, got 2/3rds of the way through and put it down. I tried again and only got a few chapters into it. There must be a mental block or something. Maybe I am just not ready for it yet.

You are quite correct in what you say, but I am still trying to formulate a good answer to the questions and statements of apophasis. I will try tomorrow after I get some sleep and prayer.

I hope to read more of your future posts.

mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

To Apophasis from mdcpensive1:

To answer your question of post #471 I will answer yes. I do know what you believe about salvation and “saving faith” but it would have been better if you had answered for yourself.
Post #459:
According to your answer of “our soul and spirit of a true believer are redeemed……and is now seated in heavenly with Him” seems to indicate that at the time of your salvation the soul and spirit is removed from the body and put in heaven leaving the body on earth to experience life until death. Separating the soul from the body is death of the body. This is why after the final judgment our souls will be united with our glorified body.

You quote Rom 6:2. Your use of this passage does not give the proper explanation for salvation and sealing. If you read chapter 5 and just go one more line to Rom 6:3, you will understand that Paul is writing about Baptism. We are sealed with the knowledge of our faith that the Spirit has given us when we are baptized. This corresponds to Eph 4:30 you quoted also.

You quote Phil 3:20-21 which says our citizenship is in heaven. This is correct but our citizenship is normatively through baptism which the passage talks about.

The false doctrines that crept in that you talk about are not false unless your premise of “instant” salvation is true. I will not repeat the previous posts that show salvation as a process, but we must grow in holiness by “putting on the armor of righteousness” as Paul says.
In 1Cor 1:2 which you quote about the saints in Corinth, has saints as a common term of the time as those who were baptized and had faith. Nothing wrong with that but nowadays, the common understanding is those who have attained salvation and are with Christ in heaven are privileged to be called saints (a very minor point).

In your post it is interesting that you say my faith lacks the Cross of Christ. If you knew me you would not say that. My spirituality is a combination of Carmelite and Ignatian. If you know anything about Carmelite spirituality then you would know about the life of St. John of the Cross. He took the Cross of Christ personally and did many penances because of it. The Cross is not missing from me it is part of my life and my way to Christ and it should be yours also.

You also asked if I go to Jerusalem to sacrifice (Post #460). Give me a break. All scripture is to show us what God wanted us to know about the story of salvation. Animal sacrifices were ended with the Old Covenant. I would hope you would have guessed that my understanding of the faith is a little more extensive than that.

There are many more things that I could comment on, but suffice it to say that I hope you know there is a difference between being redeemed and salvation. Some get the terms to be synonymous and lead them to false conclusions about scripture (hence the many denominations and non-denom sects). I base my faith on the continuing history of Christ’s Church as it has been revealed and its understanding of those revelations. I don’t have to be my own authority since the Church’s authority has come from Christ and I accept it. Even though you do not believe it now, I continue to pray for you because Christ has chosen you to have great faith.

Lastly, from the question you posed to me in Post #471 about Catholicism leading one to “salvation faith”. I would have to answer yes, but with qualifiers. The true Church you talk about is the one where the people (saints as you call them) have the true faith as described in the Epistle of James. Catholics would say that there are two words being used that basically mean the same. One is the “Body of Christ” and the other the Church”. (See Eph 1:22). The regular way one is put into the Church is by baptism but there are other ways. One such as yourself who has great faith is also a member of the Church of Christ. I just want to make that clear to you that I believe that is something special of you. This being in the “Body of Christ” is what many of us Catholics would call “saving faith” because we have our initial faith to get us on the journey. As we co-operate with Christ’s continual showering of graces on us our faith matures (some would call it our relationship) and we “put on the Lord Jesus” into the “new creatures” that we are by His Grace.

mdcpensive1

 

[guanophore]

  My arguments are based on salvation by grace through faith *alone* - not through any work(s) other than that of Christ's vicarious work on the cross on our behalf.  On His redemptive work alone God saves all who turn from self and trust completely in Him.ALL Scripture is written FOR you, but not ALL Scripture is written ABOUT you.  One cannot draw from ALL the Scriptures if he wants to understand salvation this side of the cross of Christ. As Paul clearly points out:**Rom. 11:6** "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Actually, it's Biblical, it's Apostolic, and therefore existed even before a church at Rome ever did. Sadly, it's Rome that moved away. The doctrine of  "*salvation based on cooperation*" is what's new.

In Ezekiel we can see a prefigurement of baptism and the new covenant

Ezek 36:24-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances."

It is clear that, when God puts His spirit within us, our heart is changed,and we are “caused” to walk according to the commandments.