Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[Odell]

Originally posted by apophasis
God loved you and sent His Son, not that you might love so that He might save you.

since you did not give me the verse of this passage Im going to show you what the BIBLE REALLY says.

you can respond if you want but I know thats not likely.

(Rom 13: 9) “The commandments you shall not commit adultry; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet and whatever other commandment there may be are summed up in this saying you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself. LOVE does no evil the neighbor; hence, LOVE is the FULFILLMENT of the law.”

hey thats why LOVE is greater than faith.

Christ came not to abolish the LAW but to fullfill it

(Matthew 5:17-18)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to FULFILL.”

what was it that FULFILLS the law again?

LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE!

Jesus came to save us but LOVE is part of it. Jesus shows us what true LOVE is all about. Jesus came to fulfill the law and Love fulfills the law

therefore

Jesus came that we might LOVE. But not just any LOVE the LOVE of GOD The LOVE that we were originally made for the LOVE that Jesus showd us how to LOVE.

now thats saveing faith brother!!!

Originally posted by apophasis
In verse 29 he is addressing those fence sitting Jews among them who have not yet made a full committment of faith in the Messiah, but desire to revert back to the sacrificial system of the Law. He is not addressing true believers. “Who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant” is not the response of a true believer.

AGAIN, he is addrssing and warning the “fence sitters” among them. Those among them who have not made a full committment to Christ by faith alone. Keep this in mind when reading all the warnings in the Book of Hebrews.One who is dead and lost is not in need of “reconciliation.” Reconciliation is between enemies. If one is “dead” he needs life. If one is “lost” he needs direction. Not reconciliation.

Ill ask again.
Are you saying that “fence sitters” are consecrated to the blood of Christ?

Because this verse is obviosly taling about those who are consecrated to his blood.

You cant answer me apophasis because you are wrong.

Jesus left us an awsome Church that can help you in your bible study. come on home.

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[apophasis]

mdcpensive1:

According to your answer of “our soul and spirit of a true believer are redeemed……and is now seated in heavenly with Him” seems to indicate that at the time of your salvation the soul and spirit is removed from the body and put in heaven leaving the body on earth to experience life until death. Separating the soul from the body is death of the body. This is why after the final judgment our souls will be united with our glorified body.

I said no such thing. Here’s my quote from post #459:

At present the soul and spirit of a true believer are redeemed and he/she is positionally seen by God as having died (co-crucified) with Christ, raised to new life in Him (co-resurrected), and now seated in the heavenly with Him (see Rom. 6: Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-4).

I stated nothing about the soul and spirit being separated from our present, physical bodies. That would have been a silly statement indeed. How would the body be animated? What would give it life?

However, in respect to the true believer, there is in N.T. teaching what is called, theologically, positional truths. They describe how God now views the redeemed in a heavenly position in Christ and are found mostly in Paul’s letters to the churches. Positional truths are not experiential, they’re divinely revealed. We would not know about them except that God has revealed them to us in His written Word.2 Cor 4:18 “…while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.”

You quote Rom 6:2. Your use of this passage does not give the proper explanation for salvation and sealing. If you read chapter 5 and just go one more line to Rom 6:3, you will understand that Paul is writing about Baptism. We are sealed with the knowledge of our faith that the Spirit has given us when we are baptized. This corresponds to Eph 4:30 you quoted also.

In Rom. 6:2 Paul is not talking about the Holy Spirit in whom the true believer is “sealed” for the day of redemption. This “sealing” by the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with ritual, water baptism. Read Eph. 1:13-14:Eph 1:13-14 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge (down payment) of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory.They were sealed in the H.S. after listening to the gospel message of Christ and responding with personal belief.

Romans chapter six is speaking of a totally different, divinely, revealed truth regarding the true believer. That of being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. As having died “to sin” with Christ and raised to new life with Him. This being what is called, theologically, as “identification” truths. It is through the baptism of the Holy Spirit (upon belief in Christ) that the believer is united (identified) with Christ. He is baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ, i.e., united with Him in His death, burial and resurrection (the context of Rom. 5:12 - 6:11).

As I said previously, for this reason Paul asks in Rom. 6:2 the mundane question: “How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” He appeals to the true believer’s new identity in Christ.

You quote Phil 3:20-21 which says our citizenship is in heaven. This is correct but our citizenship is normatively through baptism which the passage talks about.

Phil. 3:20-21 nowhere references ritual, water baptism. The true believer’s citizenship is in heaven because that’s where his Savior is (see Jn. 14:3)

Nothing wrong with that but nowadays, the common understanding is those who have attained salvation and are with Christ in heaven are privileged to be called saints (a very minor point).

Scripture knows nothing of such “privileged saints.” This is a man-made doctrine. Scripture recognizes only sinners made holy in Christ, “saints” by calling, through the power of the cross.

 

[apophasis]

mdcpensive1:

In your post it is interesting that you say my faith lacks the Cross of Christ. If you knew me you would not say that. My spirituality is a combination of Carmelite and Ignatian. If you know anything about Carmelite spirituality then you would know about the life of St. John of the Cross. He took the Cross of Christ personally and did many penances because of it. The Cross is not missing from me it is part of my life and my way to Christ and it should be yours also.

If this “St. John” had understood the cross of Christ then he would have known that ALL his sins had been forgiven because of His sacrificial blood that was shed there 2000 year ago. That divine forgiveness is not found in the exercise of personal penances, but in the propitiatory, once for all, perfect, substitutionary, sacrificial death of God’s only begotten Son. The content of “saving faith.”

You also asked if I go to Jerusalem to sacrifice (Post #460). Give me a break. All scripture is to show us what God wanted us to know about the story of salvation. Animal sacrifices were ended with the Old Covenant. I would hope you would have guessed that my understanding of the faith is a little more extensive than that.

Please don’t be offended by my question. I was driving home an important point. That being that not all of Scripture can be considered applicable when forming the doctrine of salvation this side of the cross. So as an example I stated the obvious: animal sacrifice and keeping the seventh day sabbath according to the Mosaic Law.

There are many more things that I could comment on, but suffice it to say that I hope you know there is a difference between being redeemed and salvation. Some get the terms to be synonymous and lead them to false conclusions about scripture (hence the many denominations and non-denom sects).

The error, I believe, is on your part. “Salvation” is a much broader term and which includes “redemption.” ALL the saved have been redeemed; ALL the redeemed have been saved. “Redemption” means “to purchase.” One aspect of salvation is sinful men being “purchased” for God through the price of Christ’s shed blood.Rev 5:9 "And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.Peter writes to his Jewish brethren in the faith:1 Pet 1:18 "…knowing that you were not redeemed (purchased) with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ.And Paul writes to the believer at Corinth:1 Cor 6:19-20 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

1 Cor 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.All who are saved will forever belong to God because they were purchased at a very precious price, the blood of Christ. But salvation wrought by God also includes justification, reconciliation, sanctification, propitiation, identification and ultimately glorification.

 

[apophasis]

mdcpensive1:

Even though you do not believe it now, I continue to pray for you because Christ has chosen you to have great faith.

In comparison to those mentioned in Hebrews chapter eleven I do not have “great faith.” So far in my life my faith has not been tested as severely as theirs. But praise God He saves no one based on “great faith” but through one’s simple faith (trust) in the Person and sacrificial work of His only begotten Son. But I guess in a sense it is “great faith” because through such a simple, uncomplicated faith God effects so great a salvation.

This being in the “Body of Christ” is what many of us Catholics would call “saving faith” because we have our initial faith to get us on the journey. As we co-operate with Christ’s continual showering of graces on us our faith matures (some would call it our relationship) and we “put on the Lord Jesus” into the “new creatures” that we are by His Grace.

Well, according to Paul, one is baptized (united) in the body of Christ not by ritual, water baptism, but by the Holy Spirit upon personal belief in Christ:1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."And according to Biblical/Apostolic teaching faith is not one’s initial step in a cooperative journey toward eternal salvation. But “…by grace you have been saved through faith.” “Saving faith” accepts and rejoices in the divinely, revealed fact embodied in those four little words:“you have been saved.”

 

[apophasis]

quanophore:

In Ezekiel we can see a prefigurement of baptism and the new covenant

Ezek 36:24-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances."

It is clear that, when God puts His spirit within us, our heart is changed,and we are “caused” to walk according to the commandments.

I have no problem with this. But the Spirit dwells in those who are saved, in those who have been purified and forgiven of all sins. This “walk” is a result of divine salvation, not a cooperative effort to achieve it. And the sprinkling of clean water is a metaphor for the washing away of sins. This is not done by water but by blood.

In context Ezekiel is speaking to national Israel. It is the unconditional New Covenant God will make with that nation in the future. In context, it is that nation that He will cleanse and cause to walk in His statutes (see Rom. 11:25-29).

The New Covenant was inaugurated at the cross through the shedding of Christ’s sacrificial blood. And individual, believing Jews and Gentiles called out from all nations, during this Church age, now benefit through it by being brought into a salvation relationship with God and into the Church Christ is now building through faith in His sacrificial death on their behalf.

But the New Covenant itself, which Ezekiel describes in that passage, will be literally established in the future with national Israel. Read what he says just before the verses you quoted:Ezek 36:22-24 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols…”"When interpreting God’s Word (as in all literature) context is very important, Guano.

 

[apophasis]

since you did not give me the verse of this passage Im going to show you what the BIBLE REALLY says.

you can respond if you want but I know thats not likely.

(Rom 13: 9) “The commandments you shall not commit adultry; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet and whatever other commandment there may be are summed up in this saying you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself. LOVE does no evil the neighbor; hence, LOVE is the FULFILLMENT of the law.”

hey thats why LOVE is greater than faith.

Christ came not to abolish the LAW but to fullfill it

(Matthew 5:17-18)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to FULFILL.”

what was it that FULFILLS the law again?

LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE!

Jesus came to save us but LOVE is part of it. Jesus shows us what true LOVE is all about. Jesus came to fulfill the law and Love fulfills the law

therefore

Jesus came that we might LOVE. But not just any LOVE the LOVE of GOD The LOVE that we were originally made for the LOVE that Jesus showd us how to LOVE.

now thats saveing faith brother!!!

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.Salvation is never based on our love toward Him (or others), but it originates in His love toward us.

Now, I agree that saving faith produces in the true believer a love for God as never before (regeneration):1 Pet 1:8 "…and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,"But can you show me where it’s revealed in His Word that one of the main purposes the Son incarnated into this world was to show us how to love that we might be saved? Can you show me where it says that God determnes one’s salvation based on his ability to have learned from Jesus how to love?

Ill ask again.
Are you saying that “fence sitters” are consecrated to the blood of Christ? Because this verse is obviosly taling about those who are consecrated to his blood.

You cant answer me apophasis because you are wrong.

I doubt very much that those who have “trampled under foot the Son of God,” and have “regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified,” and have “insulted the Spirit of grace,” can be considered saved, or ever had “saving faith.”

Closely associating one’s self with a society of true believers can result in experiencing a degree of “sanctification,” but those men, negatively described in Hebrews chapter ten, never fully committed themselves to the faith. Such men are found in every church fellowship, even to this day. And the warning remains the same.

Jesus left us an awsome Church that can help you in your bible study. come on home.

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Thanks for the offer, but the only “home” I’m looking for and anticipating is the city of the living God: that’s Home for me. And until then I’ll enjoy the company and encouragement of those who KNOW they “have been saved” and glory in Christ alone.

 

[Odell]

If this “St. John” had understood the cross of Christ then he would have known that ALL his sins had been forgiven because of His sacrificial blood that was shed there 2000 year ago. That divine forgiveness is not found in the exercise of personal penances, but in the propitiatory, once for all, perfect, substitutionary, sacrificial death of God’s only begotten Son. The content of “saving faith.”

no one said forgiveness is found in a personal penance.

the content of a saveing faith would be to do penance

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.Salvation is never based on our love toward Him (or others), but it originates in His love toward us.

I dotn have to LOVE God

Im going to quote all around the verse you gave so you can get the context.

start with verse 7 of (1 Jn ch4) “Beloved, let us LOVE one another, because LOVE is of God; everyone who LOVES is begotetn by God and knows God whoever is without LOVE does not know God for God is LOVE”

everyone who LOVES is begotten those who have no love do not know God.

those who dont know God dont have LOVE
Christ came into this world so that we might know him and that we so might LOVE

“In this way the LOVE of God was reveled to us God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him In this is LOVE, not that we have LOVED God, but that he LOVED us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.”

The LOVE of God was reveled to us in JESUS “you know his onece for all sacrafice”

In this is LOVE as the verse says but not that we LOVED God why because those who dont know God dont have LOVE acording to the context. Jesus died for those who do not have faith who do not know him who do not have LOVE so that we would know him and so that we can LOVE.

skip to vs 12 “If we LOVE one another God remains in us and his LOVE is brought to perfection in us This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us”

If we dont have LOVE God is not in us. Hence LOVE is greater than faith.

And how do we know we remain in Jesus is it just our personal relationship confessing with our lips I believe?

NOPE.
WE know at least Catholics know because the bible says we know that we remain in him if we LOVE.

verse 19 "We LOVE because he first LOVED us."

so wait…what…:hypno:

So now we can LOVE because we know he “Jesus” first LOVED us.

Thats why Jesus came He came to show us how to LOVE and now I can live as we were first created for in the beginning.

Adam and Eve messed up not as if they LOVED God (sined) but Jesus Came to redeem us of our sins and the sin of our first parents because he LOVED us.

Closely associating one’s self with a society of true believers can result in experiencing a degree of “sanctification,” but those men, negatively described in Hebrews chapter ten, never fully committed themselves to the faith.Such men are found in every church fellowship, even to this day. And the warning remains the same

these men are consecrated to the blood of God.
There declaired inocent by his blood according to your theology.

but yet they will have a worse punishement then those who were never consecrated?

How do you fully comit yourself when you are already consecrated (SAVED)?

And according to your theology it would not be by LOVEING God now would it?

You dont have to LOVE God.

You dotn have to fully commit yourself because that would be a work after all your conscrated at the moment of your one time alter call of accepting him as your personal Lord and savior. And your faith in him ALONE

hope to here back from you because it seems to me that you have some major holes in your theology.

 

[apophasis]

no one said forgiveness is found in a personal penance.

ARTICLE 4
THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God’s mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."4

"It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest’s sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6

the content of a saveing faith would be to do penance

This statement makes no sense, nevertheless, the exercise of penance by an individual is uniquely Catholic - it is neither Biblical or Apostolic.

I dotn have to LOVE God

Salvation is “by grace through faith.” It is the saved (the regenerated) who then freely love God - they don’t “have to.”

Im going to quote all around the verse you gave so you can get the context.

start with verse 7 of (1 Jn ch4) "Beloved, let us LOVE one another, because LOVE is of God; everyone who LOVES is begotten by God and knows God whoever is without LOVE does not know God for God is LOVE"

Notice, Odell, it is those who know God that love Him. Those who “know God” are those who are saved by God. The unbeliever does not know Him nor does he accept the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).

these men are consecrated to the blood of God. There declaired inocent by his blood according to your theology.

Not according to my theology. According to yours they are (they’re “Catholics”) and all they need to do is “penance.”

The word used in that passage is “sanctified.” And based on the context sanctified is not necessarily tantamount to salvation (see 1 Cor. 7:14).

 

[Odell]

ARTICLE 4
THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

"It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest’s sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6

we are absolved at the moment of asking for forgivness. not at the moment of penance.

This statement makes no sense, nevertheless, the exercise of penance by an individual is uniquely Catholic - it is neither Biblical or Apostolic.Salvation is

so you could steal from me and ask me to forgive you but you dont have to give back what you have stolen?

You dont understand what a penance is.

“by grace through faith.” It is the saved (the regenerated) who then freely love God - they don’t "have to.“Notice, Odell, it is those who know God that love Him. Those who "know God” are those who are saved by God.

You say those who LOVE God KNOW God
And you say those who KNOW God are SAVED

HELLO this is what Im saying this is what the bible is saying

AND IT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

You can only conclude that

those who know God are saved and those who know God LOVE God.

therefore if you dont LOVE God you dont know God

If you dont know God your not saved.

You ONLY know God if you LOVE him those are your words
and those who know him are saved.

do you not see that the bible is supporting Catholics and is in direct contradiction to what you are trying to say?

I dont know if I could have made it any clearer than that

The unbeliever does not know Him nor does he accept the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).

And he does not LOVE him

Not according to my theology. According to yours they are (they’re “Catholics”) and all they need to do is “penance.”

no they need to repent

The word used in that passage is “sanctified.” And based on the context sanctified is not necessarily tantamount to salvation (see 1 Cor. 7:14).

same thing

Good way to avoid the passage though

 

[Odell]

One other thing apophasis you said

Closely associating one’s self with a society of true believers can result in experiencing a degree of “sanctification,” but those men, negatively described in Hebrews chapter ten, never fully committed themselves to the faith.Such men are found in every church fellowship, even to this day. And the warning remains the same

I responded with

You dotn have to fully commit yourself because that would be a work after all your conscrated at the moment of your one time alter call of accepting him as your personal Lord and savior. And your faith in him ALONE

which of the two is false you dont have to fully commit yourself or your alter call is the moment you are sanctified or consecrated to the blood of Christ.

And how do YOU fully commit YOURSELF I thought Jesus did every thing once for all on the cross:shrug:

also you said

The word used in that passage is “sanctified.” And based on the context sanctified is not necessarily tantamount to salvation (see 1 Cor. 7:14).

what is your definition of sanctified?

Websters says it to be consecrated holy.

nothing unclean will enter heaven do you agree with this
YES or NO.

And could you show me the verse that says YOU will make it to heaven not being HOLY? You teach it, does the bible?

also I underline what you said about a degree of sanctification. Well thats a process thats what a degree is.

You agree YES or NO?

those that are not fully sanctified are they the ones that have not fully commited themselves?

tell me how one goes up a degree in sanctification?

And can you let me know what degree gets you into heaven.

is it the alter call degree?
or is it the speaking in tounges degree?
Is it the going to Church every sunday degree?

 

[apophasis]

Odell:

we are absolved at the moment of asking for forgivness. not at the moment of penance.

It’s all within in the process of the “sacrament.” And by yielding to the dictates of the “sacrament” one is expressing unbelief in the Apostolic declaration:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 "to open their eyes so that they may turn from (the meaning of repentance “repentance”) darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 "in whom (not "in what) we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The Apostolic proclamation is that all who turn from unbelief to belief in Christ alone receive through that faith the divine forgiveness of ALL sins. The one who has saving faith understands and rejoices in this divinely revealed FACT. Such fath humbly bows to the divine message delivered by the Apostles that because of the substitutionary, sacrificial, blood sacrifice of His beloved Son, God now has the power, without violating His own justice and holiness, to forever forgive the sins of all who, by faith, turn to Christ alone. Because by the cross the price of divine redemption was paid in full, and because of the blood God was forever propitiated.

so you could steal from me and ask me to forgive you but you dont have to give back what you have stolen? You dont understand what a penance is.

Oh, I understand the sacrament. What you fail to understand, or refuse to acknowledge, is the power of the cross of Christ. Saving faith does not, nor cannot, accede to the Catholic idea of penance. It’s like trying to fit a square plug into a round hole.

You say those who LOVE God KNOW God. And you say those who KNOW God are SAVED. HELLO this is what Im saying this is what the bible is saying

Actually, I say only those who are saved know God and accept the things freely given to us by God (1 Cor. 2:12, 14). The procedure begins first with salvation through saving faith.

You ONLY know God if you LOVE him those are your words and those who know him are saved.

No, you can only know God if you’re saved. It is the saved (regenerated) who love Him, and this love is fueled by the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as the believer grows in them (2 Pet. 3:18). You keep trying to assert your love before God’s love, Odell. Doesn’t work that way.1 John 4:19 “We love, because He first loved us.”

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.

do you not see that the bible is supporting Catholics and is in direct contradiction to what you are trying to say?

No I do not. I hope I have made it clear to you that any true love men can express toward God (and others) begins and stems from God’s love toward us in sending His Son to die in our stead; “We love because He first loved us.”

Good way to avoid the passage though

I have not avoided the passage at all.

 

[apophasis]

Odell:

Apophasis: Closely associating one’s self with a society of true believers can result in experiencing a degree of “sanctification,” but those men, negatively described in Hebrews chapter ten, never fully committed themselves to the faith.Such men are found in every church fellowship, even to this day. And the warning remains the same

Odell: You dotn have to fully commit yourself because that would be a work after all your conscrated at the moment of your one time alter call of accepting him as your personal Lord and savior. And your faith in him ALONE

“Altar calls” cannot save anyone. They do, however, give opportunity for an unbeliever to publicly express personal faith in Christ. I do, however, have a problem with the false notion that all who “go forward” on such a call are saved simply because they did. Just as I have a problem with those who teach that simply baptizing someone washes away original sin and infuses righteousness into the soul. Both notions are false.

which of the two is false you dont have to fully commit yourself or your alter call is the moment you are sanctified or consecrated to the blood of Christ.

One has been “sanctified in Christ Jesus” and is a “saint by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2, 30) the moment he/she truly believes in the Person and work Jesus Christ.

What I meant when I said those Jews in Hebrews ten would not fully commit to faith in Christ alone, was that as Jews they desired to return to the sacrificial system of the Judaism of their fathers. But if they rejected the blood of the New Covenant there remained no longer a sacrifice for sins. In reality there was no turning back for them. The Old Covenant with its Commandments (even the Decalogue) and its sacrificial system ended at the cross. We have entered an age of FAITH (see Gal. 3:21-25). True Christianity is not a “new and improved” form of Judaism. Levitical priests have not been replaced by Catholic priests. The Mosaic Law has not been replaced by canon law. “Bloody” sacrifices have not been replaced by an “unbloody” sacrifice. Nor has Jerusalem been replaced by Rome. This side of the cross the saved are to be committed to Christ alone through faith alone. They’re to give themselves over completely to trusting in what He has done, once for all, on their behalf. And by that “saving faith” they rejoice in those four glorious words found in God’s Word: “you have been saved.”

 

[Odell]

It’s all within in the process of the “sacrament.” And by yielding to the dictates of the “sacrament” one is expressing unbelief in the Apostolic declaration:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 "to open their eyes so that they may turn from (the meaning of repentance “repentance”) darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 "in whom (not "in what) we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The Apostolic proclamation is that all who turn from unbelief to belief in Christ alone receive through that faith the divine forgiveness of ALL sins. The one who has saving faith understands and rejoices in this divinely revealed FACT. Such fath humbly bows to the divine message delivered by the Apostles that because of the substitutionary, sacrificial, blood sacrifice of His beloved Son, God now has the power, without violating His own justice and holiness, to forever forgive the sins of all who, by faith, turn to Christ alone. Because by the cross the price of divine redemption was paid in full, and because of the blood God was forever propitiated.

So Jesus words when he says you have to forgive in order to be forgiven how do you interprit this when Jesus paid the full. Why should I forgive you for being so slanderous towards me? Do I have to Jesus says I do. If I dont then he want forgive me if I have done the same towards you.

read Mt 18 21-35 the parable of the unforgiving servant.

Oh, I understand the sacrament. What you fail to understand, or refuse to acknowledge, is the power of the cross of Christ. Saving faith does not, nor cannot, accede to the Catholic idea of penance. It’s like trying to fit a square plug into a round hole.Actually,

You really know how to offend people dont you.

I acknowledge the POWER of the CROSS OF CHRIST why do you think MY CHURCH has a crucifix?

obviously you do NOT understand the sacrament.

does not Jesus tell us to make things right with our brother before offering our gifts?

Does Jesus have a lapse on what the power of the CROSS is?

Did Jesus die so we dont no longer have to make things right?
I can ask forgivness all I want but I have to MAKE things right its scriptural.

I say only those who are saved know God and accept the things freely given to us by God (1 Cor. 2:12, 14). The procedure begins first with salvation through saving faith.No, you can only know God if you’re saved.

And I agree with you so whats your point.

but I will again use your argument aginst you, and you can again avoid it.

But I dont mind repeating my self I think its kind of fun show how ignorent you (choose) to be or stay.

You said only those who KNOW God are saved.
You also said that those who are saved do not have to LOVE God back.

But the bible says only those whom LOVE God KNOW God

So Catholics say and the bible says you must LOVE God in order to be saved

But YOU say you dont have to LOVE God.

Should I trust apophasis or the bible?

It is the saved (regenerated) who love Him, and this love is fueled by the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as the believer grows in them (2 Pet. 3:18).

dua

“but we dont have too” the great wisdom of apophasis.

You keep trying to assert your love before God’s love, Odell. Doesn’t work that way.

1 John 4:19 “We love, because He first loved us.”
​

NO I do not in fack I first showed you this passage

So now we can LOVE because we know he “Jesus” first LOVED us.

Thats why Jesus came He came to show us how to LOVE and now I can live as we were first created for in the beginning.

Adam and Eve messed up not as if they LOVED God (sined) but Jesus Came to redeem us of our sins and the sin of our first parents because he LOVED us.

If I have to Ill repeat it again. But I would like to keep repeating myself down to the minimum so read it this time:thumbsup:​

 

[Odell]

“Altar calls” cannot save anyone. They do, however, give opportunity for an unbeliever to publicly express personal faith in Christ. I do, however, have a problem with the false notion that all who “go forward” on such a call are saved simply because they did. Just as I have a problem with those who teach that simply baptizing someone washes away original sin and infuses righteousness into the soul.

Both notions are false.One has been “sanctified in Christ Jesus” and is a “saint by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2, 30) the moment he/she truly believes in the Person and work Jesus Christ.

how come baptism is not a degree of sanctification?

What I meant when I said those Jews in Hebrews ten would not fully commit to faith in Christ alone, was that as Jews they desired to return to the sacrificial system of the Judaism of their fathers. But if they rejected the blood of the New Covenant there remained no longer a sacrifice for sins. In reality there was no turning back for them. The Old Covenant with its Commandments (even the Decalogue) and its sacrificial system ended at the cross. We have entered an age of FAITH (see Gal. 3:21-25). True Christianity is not a “new and improved” form of Judaism. Levitical priests have not been replaced by Catholic priests. The Mosaic Law has not been replaced by canon law. “Bloody” sacrifices have not been replaced by an “unbloody” sacrifice. Nor has Jerusalem been replaced by Rome. This side of the cross the saved are to be committed to Christ alone through faith alone. They’re to give themselves over completely to trusting in what He has done, once for all, on their behalf. And by that “saving faith” they rejoice in those four glorious words found in God’s Word: “you have been saved.”

eight words for you
(Heb 10 vs29)“The covenant blood by which HE was consecrated”

How is a Jew or any non Christian for that matter consecrated to the blood of Christ?

Plus
You totally avoided me entire post

I ask again

And how do YOU fully commit YOURSELF I thought Jesus did every thing once for all on the cross?

also I underline what you said about a degree of sanctification. Well thats a process thats what a degree is.

You agree YES or NO?

those that are not fully sanctified are they the ones that have not fully commited themselves?

tell me how one goes up a degree in sanctification?

I summed up that whole post here in just a couple parapraghs.

Lets try that again.

can you answer these questions for me?

 

[mdcpensive1]

Apophasis

From Post #459, sorry for the delay.
I am glad to hear of your understanding of body and soul. You are correct in your explanation of them not being separated. You were using a term “positionally” that I was not familiar in your interpretation.

I can counter your posts with scripture quotes and passages on how the Church understands these passages but it all comes down to the fundamental belief of what saves us that causes us to write these posts. It is your belief that it is faith which is “saving faith” that saves us and you have skillfully shown the passages that talk about faith or belief saving us. I should add that it is extremely important to understand belief from the point of view of the scripture writers and not our present day understanding of the words they used.

A question I have is “since faith is a gift that is given by God once and for all, why is it He gives some “saving faith” and others “plain faith” but not “saving faith””? Maybe you can help me understand what you believe? As Catholics, we understand that luke-warm faith can grow into what you call “saving faith” if we co-operate with God’s graces. (I understand that you believe we don’t need those graces since we have all we need.) I assume this growth in faith you would call “works of men” that is not required for our salvation. I would ask you then to recall the story of the master who left on a trip who gave his servants various amounts of “talents” to care for in his absence. The ones who increased their amounts were called good and faithful servants while those who did not had theirs taken away. I see this as our personal growth in the gifts God has given us *including our faith *which is also a gift. Our faith can save us and is important but is a component, not the end of the road.

God the Father planned our salvation and God the Son gained the graces for our salvation by His death and resurrection. The Holy Spirit infuses the love of God into our hearts. Once as He gives us His grace as pure gift and again as we co-operate with what graces He has given us.
Salvation is for us all, by grace through faith, but scripture says not only should we believe, but that we should also repent and be baptized. We cannot forget these last two.

Many non-Catholics try to separate aspects of the faith. Some say “it is either faith or baptism” or “Christ of the Church” or “the bible or tradition”. Catholics see with all inclusive eyes, not separating that which should be joined. This is the richness of Christ’s Church as it has been handed down through Peter and his successors.

This post is to give you some thought on “saving faith” and I welcome your thoughts.

Mdcpensive1

 

[DixiesFinest]

Well, if you were one once then you already know the answer:thumbsup:

I have a question–Why do you not believe that you are secure of your salvation anymore

My question to you, why did you ever think you could know the mind of God: “I am saved, and I know it!”

“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,’ will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God; severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22-23).

“I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

“These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11-12).

“You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4).

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim. 2:11-13).

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins. But a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries” (Heb. 10:26-27).

 

[apophasis]

So Jesus words when he says you have to forgive in order to be forgiven how do you interprit this when Jesus paid the full.

So you disregard the post-cross, Apostolic message concerning the forgiveness of sins which I quoted and you believe instead that your forgiveness does not come through the cross but is contingent upon your forgiving others. How do you reconcile that with?..Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself".

Why should I forgive you for being so slanderous towards me? Do I have to Jesus says I do. If I dont then he want forgive me if I have done the same towards you.

When have I been slanderous towards you? When you forgive needlessly do you acquire extra merit points for times you don’t forgive? How does that work?

read Mt 18 21-35 the parable of the unforgiving servant.

How many times in your life has God handed you over to torchurers (vs. 34)?.

You really know how to offend people dont you.

How have I offended you? By telling you the truth?

I acknowledge the POWER of the CROSS OF CHRIST why do you think MY CHURCH has a crucifix?

What does having a crucifix prove?

does not Jesus tell us to make things right with our brother before offering our gifts?

What gifts are you offering?“For by grace you have been saved through faith…the GIFT OF GOD, not as a result of works…”

Does Jesus have a lapse on what the power of the CROSS is?

Jesus taught many things to the Jews who were under the Law or as His subjects of the Kingdom prior to the cross that do not directly apply to the believer (this side of the cross) who has been forever cleansed by His sacrificial blood - through faith.

Did Jesus die so we dont no longer have to make things right?

He died that you might be made right with God through Him. Making things right with your fellow men does not, nor cannot, make you right with God. Only Christ’s propitiatory work on the cross could accomplish a right standing before God. And His vicarious work on the cross is applied, in full, to a sinner at the time of belief in Him.

I can ask forgivness all I want but I have to MAKE things right its scriptural.

Divine forgiveness is not through “asking” for forgiveness, but acknowledging oneself a sinner and turning from unbelief to belief in what Christ has done FOR YOU. Having through the cross put away your sins once for all.

So Catholics say and the bible says you must LOVE God in order to be saved. But YOU say you dont have to LOVE God

I and the Bible say that only those who are saved can truly love God because only the saved actually know God. You cannot love someone you do not know. You cannot know God until you’ve been saved by Him through faith in Christ Jesus.

Should I trust apophasis or the bible?

The Bible.

So now we can LOVE because we know he “Jesus” first LOVED us.

We (the saved) love because He (God) first loved us in sending His Son to die in our stead. But salvation comes through faith in what He accomplished for you.

Thats why Jesus came He came to show us how to LOVE and now I can live as we were first created for in the beginning.

No, He came to die for you, in your stead, as a substitutionary sacrifice for your sins. The Apostolic message to the world is to personally believe what He has done on your behalf and you will receive the forgiveness of all sins.Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."There is no other way for your sins to be forgiven, Odell. It’s quite simple. God has made it that way - to His glory. It’s men who complicate it.

 

[geezerbob]

Don’t you just love it? Now we’re being told that everything Jesus said prior to the crucifixion is irrelevant. I guess that makes Him a liar, which would mean that He is not God, which would then mean that His crucifixion is irrelevant. How’s that for circular logic?

 

[apophasis]

how come baptism is not a degree of sanctification?

It is only those who have been saved through faith that are to be baptized. Consequently it is the saved through faith who “have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling…” (1 Cor. 1:2).

eight words for you
(Heb 10 vs29)“The covenant blood by which HE was consecrated”

Which he regarded as unclean!

How is a Jew or any non Christian for that matter consecrated to the blood of Christ?

Through faith in Christ. To this they would not commit.

How do YOU fully commit YOURSELF I thought Jesus did every thing once for all on the cross?

He went to the cross and bore my sins for me, He doesn’t believe for me. How silly.

also I underline what you said about a degree of sanctification. Well thats a process thats what a degree is.

You agree YES or NO?

In context - NO!

those that are not fully sanctified are they the ones that have not fully commited themselves?

I referenced the verse in 1 Corinthians that states an unbelieving spouse is “sanctified” by a believing spouse. In this context it is not tantamout to salvation. The believing spouse has a divine influence upon the unbelieving spouse which may, or may not, effect his/her turning, by faith, to Christ for salvation and thus being sanctified in Him.

tell me how one goes up a degree in sanctification?

By turning from unbelief to belief in Christ - trusting fully in His sacrificial work on your behalf. Then, and only then, are you “sanctified in Christ Jesus.” A “saint” by calling.

It’s all quite simple, Odell.

 

[apophasis]

Don’t you just love it? Now we’re being told that everything Jesus said prior to the crucifixion is irrelevant. I guess that makes Him a liar, which would mean that He is not God, which would then mean that His crucifixion is irrelevant. How’s that for circular logic?

Who told you that “everything” Jesus said prior to the cross was “irrelevant”? Can you quote this person? Certainly not from my posts.