Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

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a_burger said:
Actually what we should do as Catholics is inform the Protestants that Martin Luther was praying the rosary at his death. Luther was very "Catholic’ when he died. Many things he posted on the church were changed and he should get credit for it. He should not get credit for Lutheranism he didn’t institute. If Lutherans went back to the original Lutheranism they would see how Catholic Luther was.
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Sources?
 
Jon_Hus said:
You say that the Father gave Jesus Authority over heaven and earth. When did the Father give Jesus this Authority?
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Jon, I am not sure what you are asking me now. If you are asking me where it says it, or when. Jesus received his Power of the Holy SPirit at conception, if thats what you are asking? So he had the Power from the moment of Conception if thats what you are asking.
 
rinnie said:
Jon, I am not sure what you are asking me now. If you are asking me where it says it, or when. Jesus received his Power of the Holy SPirit at conception, if thats what you are asking? So he had the Power from the moment of Conception if thats what you are asking.
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I’m looking for a historic time frame. I’m not into a “gotcha” moment. My question is not when did Jesus receive the HS or Bible verses in the Book of Matthew, rather when did the Father actually give Jesus the Authority over heaven and earth.

But as a side issue, you may like to double check your statement about Jesus receiving his power of the HS at conception.
 
Jon_Hus said:
I’m looking for a historic time frame. I’m not into a “gotcha” moment. My question is not when did Jesus receive the HS or Bible verses in the Book of Matthew, rather when did the Father actually give Jesus the Authority over heaven and earth.

But as a side issue, you may like to double check your statement about Jesus receiving his power of the HS at conception.
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I am giving you a gotcha moment. I answered your question. Jesus received the Power of the Holy SPirit (power over heaven and earth) at the time of conception. Jesus is the word that became Flesh. Again my answer is the moment of conception,
 
Jon_Hus said:
My question whizkid43 was directed to OneTrueCathApos in which I ask him what edition of the Ante-Nicene Fathers he studies. It is a simple question that I ask.

In case you didn’t read his message, he (OneTrueCathApos) accuses protestants of not reading the Ante-Nicene Fathers. He has no way of knowing if this is a true statement or not. But apparently wizkid43, you are more interested in a persons religious beliefs than being truthful, accurate or considerate.

When I quote from Augistine or the Cannons of Trent, or whatever, I give the name of the book, the editor, copyright and so forth. That is how I engage in intelligent debate. It is my opinion, humble as it is, that OneTrueCathApos employes the sledgehammer approach. I make this based on observation. If you feel that your justified in defending that little lamb known as OneTrueCathApos, go right ahead.
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I did read his message and fully understand what he means.

You talk about having an intelligent debate yet you continue name calling. I use logic, causality, etc Anyone can site sources, books, editors and so forth, that doesn’t mean they understand them… Whatever… could you provide your sources for hubris?
 
rinnie said:
I am giving you a gotcha moment. I answered your question. Jesus received the Power of the Holy SPirit (power over heaven and earth) at the time of conception. Jesus is the word that became Flesh. Again my answer is the moment of conception,
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According to the Bible, and check for yourself, Jesus, the second person of the triune God was with the first person of the triune God (the Father), in the beginning (Genesis ch.1 vs.1). Referring to Jesus, the writer of the New Testament book of Hebrews states “You Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands” Hebrews 1:10

But according to rinnie, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit of God, did not meet up with the second person of the triune God until Approx. the year 4 BC. In addition, the second person of the triune God, He who created the heavens and earth (according to the Bible) did not have power over His creation until about 2000 years ago, according to rinnie.
 
whizkid43 said:
I did read his message and fully understand what he means.

You talk about having an intelligent debate yet you continue name calling. I use logic, causality, etc Anyone can site sources, books, editors and so forth, that doesn’t mean they understand them… Whatever… could you provide your sources for hubris?
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Now I see why you call yourself whizkid.
 
Hi Jon and Rinnie!

Humm, I never thought about Jesus actually RECEIVING the Holy Spirit because He was God and would have had the Spirit in Him. I just think about all that art that shows Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit coming down like a dove. To me, this was the Trinity most vividly explained as God the Father says “this is my beloved Son”, and not the actual receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Very interesting.

Rinnie, I read your posts and have some questions, but right now I’m reading and learning from yours and Jon’s conversation.🙂
 
Oh! Rinnie! That reminds me. There was a guy on tv the other night - Perry Stone - never heard of him, but he was giving a study from Israel and it caught my eye. He teaching on the very scripture that you and I were talking about in Matt. 24 about “those who endure to the end will be saved”, so naturally, I expected him to back-up the context in which Jesus said it, talking about the Tribulation.

Nooo. He explained that to understand what Jesus was saying, you have to look at what He said just before that, and Jesus was talking about being offended. So in a nutshell, this Stone guy was saying that those who endure offense to the end will be saved.

I thought you might get a kick out of that.🙂
 
“When did Jesus receive authority over heaven and earth?” I don’t understand the purpose of this question, why was it asked and where is it leading?

Jesus being God through all eternity always had authority over heaven and earth.
 
rinnie said:
You are correct there dear. Without the blood of Jesus we would all be guilty as charged. Look back at the O.T. Remember when Jesus died he went to release the souls to open up heaven for them. But when Jesus came back after 3 days (think what did he leave us). The Apostles right. To help us, he knew we are sinners. And he left us the most important thing himself (the Church). Now we both agree Jesus left us free choice. You can follow him , or yourself right? But we do have a shot of getting into heaven. A real good shot. But that only shot is the Church. He gave his Apostles permission to forgive sin. That permission still exists today. He gave that through HOLY ORDERS. The laying of hands. It is passed on today. IT cannot ever die, ( that authority) Jesus promised. I will explain mortal sin and venial sin in my next post.
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Rinnie, I’m not sure what you mean that we have a shot at Heaven - a real good shot, and that only shot is the Church. I restrain myself from saying “heresy!” because I don’t know if Catholics use “The Church” synonymous with “Jesus Christ”.

I’m afraid I can’t make the stretch with you that since Jesus gave the Apostles authority to forgive sins, that authority didn’t die with the Apostles. If there was only some scripture somewhere backing up the claim that they could and did pass it on, and even held the authority to pass it on, I think we would have something to discuss. But the fact of the matter is that there are clear scriptures that say if we confess our sins to God, He is quick to forgive them. I gotta go with the Bible.

What is the authority that can never die you said Jesus promised? Do you have scripture I can look at? Thanks for your patience with me.
 
rinnie said:
Ok now, I have a question for you if you do not mind. Where does is say confession is a act of obedience? Here is why I am asking. I don’t recall Jesus saying to the apostles this: Hey guys I am going to give you this power to forgive sin, but there really is no need for this power because people can just do it on their own if they want. It does not make sense does it. There had to be a reason for this Power right? Next post I will explain this power.
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Rinnie, I can’t think of a place where it says we MUST confess our sins. “An act of obedience” is Laura speak (Laura is my name) for loving God so much that we want to do what is pleasing to Him. Now, “repent” - I can think of several places in scripture for that.

There had to be a reason for this Power, right?

I haven’t forgotten your question but I gotta say this first before I lose my train of thought.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
~I Corinthians 15

When Paul says of this Gospel we have received “wherein ye stand”, it means exactly that - Stand!
Jesus died for our sins. Our sins are forgiven when we believe on Him. We do not need to ask for something that has already taken place. We confess our sins because we are acutely aware of what Christ did on the Cross for us. It’s a time alone with God the Father and Jesus as mediator in intimate conversation that like any relationship, grows with communication and honesty. I can’t even express what I have learned on my knees begging forgiveness that I already have. I know I have it, but I love God, and He uses those times to teach and change us and I am sure when I say that the Holy Spirit ministers to me the most while I am sincerely asking for forgiveness.
 
rinnie said:
Now when you go to confession, its has nothing to do with a Priest forgiving your sins. He can’t. God put him there to stand in for HIM to forgive our sins.

2 good reasons for confession, to admit that sin, and show that you acknowledge it. Once you say it and ask for forgiveness its like you feel clean and new again.

Another reason you not only get that sin wiped clean, but here is the BIG thing. You get something else in return too. GRACE. Grace from God, once you get cleansed from that sin, he helps you by giving you that gift of Grace to quit doing it. Its like the devil knows your weakness we all know that , but its like that grace puts a fence in front of that sin now. or say a mean dog. sure the devil can break through again, but its gonna be a little harder this time. And if you kinda lets say stay behind the fence, or dog its gonna be easier for you this time. Do you understand what I am saying. And the more you confess, the less sins you have the closer to God you become. So its like the stronger your fence becomes, and the more dogs you get to protect you. Does that makes sense?
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I am very happy to hear that Priests cannot forgive sins. I was under the impression that it was believed they could, which was very disturbing to me. I’ve been seeing what looked like to me, an attempt to make the Word fit the religion, forcing the Bible to say what it doesn’t say. Thank you for clearing that one up! (((Rinnie)))

I love these moments where scripture comes together in an “ah ha” kind of way. When you were speaking of Grace like a fence, I thought of Romans 5 and 6 “where sin abounds, Grace abounds much more” or something like that. Then “should we continue sinning knowing that Grace will abound? God forbid!”

This is the scripture that uses the analogy of a seed, that when Christ died, we died. When He was buried, we were buried. When He arose from the dead, we arose from that old sin nature to a new life. Grace naturally abounds because I am a new creature in Christ, and for this reason only. Not because of confession of sins. It was ONLY the work of the Cross.

So it seems where we differ is that you are saying you have to do something to get His Grace, and I’m saying Jesus did it for me and I can back my opinion with scripture. (Romans 5 and 6)

Tell me if I’m way off base here because I’m only thinking, not judging. It seems to me that this (confession to a Priest) is a kind of bondage when we are already set free in Christ. And second, I’m not seeing how a deep relationship can be achieved with your Creator if you don’t go to Him first. When DO you go to Him?
 
Jon_Hus said:
OneTrueCathApos:

By you own admission you read the Ante-Nicene Fathers. What edition do you have? I ask this because I’m going to take you to task on a few items and I want us to be on the same page so to speak.

BTW, I assume that you have your parents permission to use their computer and internet connection?
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Just a few facts my friend. Being a new member and coming on a Catholic forum to have amicable discussions will keep you here. Otherwise your sarcasm will buy you an early ticket out.
 
always_gr8ful said:
I am very happy to hear that Priests cannot forgive sins. I was under the impression that it was believed they could, which was very disturbing to me. I’ve been seeing what looked like to me, an attempt to make the Word fit the religion, forcing the Bible to say what it doesn’t say. Thank you for clearing that one up! (((Rinnie)))

I love these moments where scripture comes together in an “ah ha” kind of way. When you were speaking of Grace like a fence, I thought of Romans 5 and 6 “where sin abounds, Grace abounds much more” or something like that. Then “should we continue sinning knowing that Grace will abound? God forbid!”

This is the scripture that uses the analogy of a seed, that when Christ died, we died. When He was buried, we were buried. When He arose from the dead, we arose from that old sin nature to a new life. Grace naturally abounds because I am a new creature in Christ, and for this reason only. Not because of confession of sins. It was ONLY the work of the Cross.

So it seems where we differ is that you are saying you have to do something to get His Grace, and I’m saying Jesus did it for me and I can back my opinion with scripture. (Romans 5 and 6)

Tell me if I’m way off base here because I’m only thinking, not judging. It seems to me that this (confession to a Priest) is a kind of bondage when we are already set free in Christ. And second, I’m not seeing how a deep relationship can be achieved with your Creator if you don’t go to Him first. When DO you go to Him?
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Who said a priest cannot forgive sins? Jesus Christ tells us they can in His Scriptures. Only and ONLY a Catholic priest can forgive sins.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Who said a priest cannot forgive sins? Jesus Christ tells us they can in His Scriptures. Only and ONLY a Catholic priest can forgive sins.
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You are right OTCA and I am hoping they are not just twisting my words around. So let me be more clear. A priest has the Power to forgive sins, we both agree on that. What I was explaining is that they do not have the power to forgive sins on their own.

Let me put it this way, I cannot forgive your sin and you cannot forgive mine, we both know because we do not have Holy Orders. But when the Priest receives Holy Orders he is given that power from above. But what I am trying to explain to them the priest never works on his own power, its God power to forgive, given from above. What I was trying to explain to them is when I said the Priest does not have the power to forgive sins, I meant on his own, his is just standing in for God, But it is God doing the forgiving not the Priest. Again, you and I understand he does indeed have the power from Holy Orders but it is only the Power God has given him. It is not a power of his own that he is doing this.

I can see alot of word twisting here. Hope that cleared it up.
 
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