Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

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Contarini said:
Why is that even relevant? You didn’t say that Pope Pius saved more people than anyone else. You said that no one else did anything, period. You can’t just switch your argument and hope we won’t notice.

Edwin
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Wanna bet?

GKC
 
Contarini said:
Ever heard of Corrie Ten Boom?

Please do not misrepresent what I said. I did not say there were more than 800,000. You said that no one else was helping Jews, period. This is indeed ridiculous. Now you have completely changed your argument to a statistical claim, regarding which I’m not going to dispute with you because I’m not an expert in the field and experts seem deeply divided as to whether Pius XIII’s actions helped or hurt Jews. That many Catholics helped Jews is beyond dispute. That Catholics by and large did better than Protestants is not beyond dispute but is something I’m quite disposed to believe. That Catholics were the only ones doing anything is clearly false. And it is clearly true that Christian anti-Judaism in general (certainly including the Catholic Church as a very prominent purveyor of anti-Judaism) did a lot to prepare Europe to accept Nazi policies toward Jews; and that Catholic church leaders often gave a divided and ambiguous response to Nazism because some of the policies of the Nazis mirrored what Catholics had been advocating (or practicing) for centuries. It also seems to me (though I don’t claim that it’s beyond dispute) that in spite of Luther’s vicious anti-Judaism, and in spite of the unquestionably anti-Jewish policies and attitudes of Protestants right up to WWII, the Catholic Church was louder and more explicit (during the century or so before the Holocaust) than Protestant churches in its call for the reduction of Jewish influence in society. I am willing to be corrected on this last score. But given my knowledge at this point, my tentative conclusion is that Catholics were both more openly and explicitly hostile to Jews before the Holocaust and more willing to defy governmental policies to help Jews once it became clear that fascist anti-Judaism was clearly racist in nature and went well beyond the policies the Catholic Church had been advocating to curb Jewish influence on social mores.

Edwin
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That is absolutely false Contarini, no matter how you want the Catholic church to look bad during the times of the Holocaust they still saved 800,000 Jews from death. I don’t care what your so called “experts” say, why don’t you name them? and for every one that you name (if you can), I will name a Jew who thanked pope Pius for his effort in saving them. Furthermore, it wasn’t the popes problem either that this was happening, it was the whole of the German Government. The pope could of stood back and did nothing, but he didn’t. I am still waiting for all of your Protestant groups who helped with the Jews from their death. God help them.
 
atheist1 said:
I ask you how Pius saved 800k Jews. You shrug your shoulders…I assume you mean you aren’t sure either.

Do you know what exactly Pius did to save 800k Jews?
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I just told you. There were 6 million Jews who were killed at the Holocaust and people question that number. Do you let things go through one ear and out the other?
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
That is absolutely false Contarini, no matter how you want the Catholic church to look bad
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Did you actually bother reading what I wrote? I don’t want the Catholic Church to look bad. I explicitly said that I think Catholics probably did a better job than anyone else.
during the times of the Holocaust they still saved 800,000 Jews from death.

You say that the Chief Rabbi of Rome estimated this. It may be true, but you have hardly given solid documentation for the claim.
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I don’t care what your so called “experts” say, why don’t you name them?
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Again, did you read what I wrote? I said that experts are divided. You don’t care what any of the experts say, or you don’t care for any who may come up with conclusions that you don’[t like?
and for every one that you name (if you can), I will name a Jew who thanked pope Pius for his effort in saving them.
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That’s comparing apples and oranges.
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Furthermore, it wasn’t the popes problem either that this was happening,
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It wasn’t the Pope’s fault personally, if that’s what you mean. It was certainly the Pope’s problem–it was everyone’s problem.
it was the whole of the German Government.
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But the German government (and other governments) would not have been able to do what it did in a heavily Christian country if both Catholics and Protestants had not paved the way with centuries of anti-Jewish propaganda.
The pope could of stood back and did nothing, but he didn’t.
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I agree with you there.
I am still waiting for all of your Protestant groups who helped with the Jews from their death. God help them.
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You said that no Protestants did anything. I gave you one name: Corrie Ten Boom. You can read her account in the book The Hiding Place. It’s common reading among evangelical Protestants. It’s understandable that you haven’t heard of her–most Protestants haven’t heard of St. Maximilian Kolbe.

In Christ,

Edwin
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Contarini said:
Did you actually bother reading what I wrote? I don’t want the Catholic Church to look bad. I explicitly said that I think Catholics probably did a better job than anyone else.
during the times of the Holocaust they still saved 800,000 Jews from death.

It’s common reading among evangelical Protestants. It’s understandable that you haven’t heard of her–most Protestants haven’t heard of St. Maximilian Kolbe.

In Christ,

Edwin

Not only did I name the chief Rabbi, but others as well. Seems you don’t get it.
you are exactly right, you gave me one name. ONE NAME for the saving of millions of Jews. Sorry Contarini, but the pope did more for the Jews than anyone else. If you’d just admit this I’d have more respect for you.
So you are blaming the Catholics for the death of the Jews? Because you are saying we are full of anti-Jewish propaganda. And like I said. This should not have been held on the shoulders of the pope. It was the German Government and there are more heads of state that should of been involved from the beginning.
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OneTrueCathApos said:
I just told you. There were 6 million Jews who were killed at the Holocaust and people question that number. Do you let things go through one ear and out the other?
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I don’t think you ever told me. Maybe I missed it so, if I did, please re-post how Pius went about saving 800k Jews.
 
atheist1 said:
I don’t think you ever told me. Maybe I missed it so, if I did, please re-post how Pius went about saving 800k Jews.
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If you’d really like to know, there are several great books out there for you to purchase which were written by Jews and such. Why don’t you go and buy one?🙂
 
I think the Catholics have a lot to show Evangelicals and the Evangelicals show the Catholics a lot. The Evangelicals must come to an understanding that the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ. They also must understand that once save always saved is very incorrect. They also must understand the original Lutheran Church has been drastically changed from the days of Luther. It was very Catholic.
 
a_burger said:
I think the Catholics have a lot to show Evangelicals and the Evangelicals show the Catholics a lot. The Evangelicals must come to an understanding that the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ. They also must understand that once save always saved is very incorrect. They also must understand the original Lutheran Church has been drastically changed from the days of Luther. It was very Catholic.
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👍
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
If you’d really like to know, there are several great books out there for you to purchase which were written by Jews and such. Why don’t you go and buy one?🙂
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I’m sure there are some good books on the subject but since you made the claim I am wondering if you could provide a brief summary of how Pius saved 800,000 Jews. What exactly did he do?
 
a_burger said:
I think the Catholics have a lot to show Evangelicals and the Evangelicals show the Catholics a lot. The Evangelicals must come to an understanding that the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ. They also must understand that once save always saved is very incorrect. They also must understand the original Lutheran Church has been drastically changed from the days of Luther. It was very Catholic.
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I’m so glad to hear this and I hope it is true.
So does this mean that Catholics will treat Lutherans as “saved” and true Christians?
 
a_burger said:
It was very Catholic.
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It was very Catholic and now it isn’t? I’m not sure that’s true. Depends on which part of the Lutheran church you are talking about then or now. Lutherans are still “very Catholic” compared to other Protestants.

Edwin
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Not only did I name the chief Rabbi, but others as well.
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You’re right that the person you named for the 800,000 figure was actually Pinchas Lapide. My apologies for not reading more carefully. However, none of the other people you mentioned gave the 800,000 figure, so I am right that you named only one person who actually gave this number. He may well be right–I am not particularly interested in disputing it.
you are exactly right, you gave me one name. ONE NAME for the saving of millions of Jews.
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No, I never said anything about “millions.” You said that no one else did anything. I gave you one counter-example. That’s all it takes to disprove your claim. I’m not going to go beyond this, because that is giving in to your attempt to play a numbers game, and I’m not going to play that game with you. I entered this discussion because you made an indefensible claim. You seem to realize that this claim was indefensible, which is why you are now trying to shift the discussion to other claims.
Sorry Contarini, but the pope did more for the Jews than anyone else.
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That’s not what you originally said, and that’s not what I am disputing. I do not have an opinion on that one way or the other. I do have the (tentative) opinion that Catholics did more than Protestants, and that the Pope deserves at least some credit for this. Quantifying the credit is difficult and probably foolish.
If you’d just admit this I’d have more respect for you.
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I do not understand the purpose of these discussions to be getting you to respect me. I assume that we both care about the truth more than we care about being respected.
So you are blaming the Catholics for the death of the Jews?
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I blame all Christians, in part. It does seem to me that Catholics were more overtly vitriolic in the century before the Holocaust than Protestants, but Protestants unquestionably contributed a great deal, and you are of course right that in the end the blame rests with the Nazis and their clearly un-Christian ideology (though in some areas, like Croatia, it’s a different story–there the guilt of Catholics is clear).
Because you are saying we are full of anti-Jewish propaganda.
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Not are, were. Bishop Williamson is a freak today. He wouldn’t have been a freak a hundred years ago. I’d like to think that even then he’d have been in the minority, though.
And like I said. This should not have been held on the shoulders of the pope.
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Not solely or primarily. But Christian anti-Judaism did help pave the way, and the fact that Christians (and specifically Catholics) had called for the reduction of Jewish influence in society made it harder for them (at first) to see how different and how utterly evil and vicious the Nazi policy was.
It was the German Government and there are more heads of state that should of been involved from the beginning.
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Agreed. There is plenty of guilt to go around.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
You’re right that the person you named for the 800,000 figure was actually Pinchas Lapide. My apologies for not reading more carefully. However, none of the other people you mentioned gave the 800,000 figure, so I am right that you named only one person who actually gave this number. He may well be right–I am not particularly interested in disputing it.

No, I never said anything about “millions.” You said that no one else did anything. I gave you one counter-example. That’s all it takes to disprove your claim. I’m not going to go beyond this, because that is giving in to your attempt to play a numbers game, and I’m not going to play that game with you. I entered this discussion because you made an indefensible claim. You seem to realize that this claim was indefensible, which is why you are now trying to shift the discussion to other claims.

That’s not what you originally said, and that’s not what I am disputing. I do not have an opinion on that one way or the other. I do have the (tentative) opinion that Catholics did more than Protestants, and that the Pope deserves at least some credit for this. Quantifying the credit is difficult and probably foolish.

I do not understand the purpose of these discussions to be getting you to respect me. I assume that we both care about the truth more than we care about being respected.

I blame all Christians, in part. It does seem to me that Catholics were more overtly vitriolic in the century before the Holocaust than Protestants, but Protestants unquestionably contributed a great deal, and you are of course right that in the end the blame rests with the Nazis and their clearly un-Christian ideology (though in some areas, like Croatia, it’s a different story–there the guilt of Catholics is clear).

Not are, were. Bishop Williamson is a freak today. He wouldn’t have been a freak a hundred years ago. I’d like to think that even then he’d have been in the minority, though.

Not solely or primarily. But Christian anti-Judaism did help pave the way, and the fact that Christians (and specifically Catholics) had called for the reduction of Jewish influence in society made it harder for them (at first) to see how different and how utterly evil and vicious the Nazi policy was.

Agreed. There is plenty of guilt to go around.

Edwin
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Well why wouldn’t you dispute the so called 6 million Jews who were killed at the Holocaust? Are there names of exactly 6 million people? No there isn’t.
Catholics would never call for the reduction of Jewish influence in society. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard. Like I said in my original post. The Catholics and the pope did MORE than any other group and that is an historical fact. So stop trying to dance around this Contarini you are only grasping at straws.
 
Hmmmm, I wonder how this period of time was derived at? Maybe the astrology charts were consulted. :tsktsk:
 
This Catholic believes those who are Apostolic Catholics and Apostolic Lutherans are saved. This includes believing the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ. Martin Luther actually argued with Zwingli about this taking the side of the actual presence. All Lutherans should read the Marburg Colloquy.
 
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