Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[SpiritMeadow]

No one comes to any conclusion based on the Bible alone. Anyone who is truly closed to perspectives outside their own tradition will remain in that tradition until they die. This is what Marsha is trying to deny, and she’s flying in the face of plausibility in doing so. I don’t think either of you are lying–I think you are failing to consider carefully enough how many influences are involved in leading any human being to do anything, and your failure to do this is directly related to the religious traditions that shaped you (rather than to the Catholicism you now profess).

My own take is that it would be impossible to come to any particular denomination by reading the bible other than to be unchurched, since there is reference to no church as such in the NT. No named entity but “the way”. Obviously what the poster means is that after reading the bible carefully, she came to believe there was one original church, and after discussing this with someone, or reading something, she concluded that that was the RCC.

Another person would do the exact same thing, and then speak to a Baptist, or a Lutheran, or read their “theologies” and conclude that the church that best represented “the way” was Baptist or Lutheran.

Another might read everything about every group they were reasonably familiar with, and conclude that Methodists most correctly represented their understanding of the bible.

What I wondered about Marsha is that coming from SDA, and obviously concluding that they were not correctly following “the way” she would be so clear in claiming that she read nothing that was not Orthodox Catholic, not even Catholic was strict enough for her. I would have thought once mistaken, that only by testing her beliefs in the marketplace of ideas could one be sure not to make the same mistake again. You are right, she cannot by her actions ever change her mind. She has made that impossible by her strict standards. (sorry Marsha, I don’t mean to talk “about” you but you do present a very interesting anomaly to me. I respect your choice to do this, but I find it very hard to understand. And understanding other points of view is my desire here.)

 

[Contarini]

My own take is that it would be impossible to come to any particular denomination by reading the bible other than to be unchurched, since there is reference to no church as such in the NT. No named entity but “the way”. Obviously what the poster means is that after reading the bible carefully, she came to believe there was one original church, and after discussing this with someone, or reading something, she concluded that that was the RCC.

Actually, what she said in her recent post (274) was that she encountered texts in Scripture that did not make sense in terms of her church’s understanding. She was told that “Roman Catholics” interpreted these texts literally, and since this interpretation made sense to her, she concluded that the Roman Catholics must be right. It seems to me that more would have to be involved–but as I said to her, it’s counterproductive to argue with people about their own experience.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Edwin, I understand that I do not speak for all Episcopalians. I try to remind others of that, but they lump and I guess I to shortcut my answers do as well. I respect your differing view of course.

I understand. Your view is certainly very common among Episcopalians.

And I’m not claiming that I would like to see the Magisterium function even quite the way it does in Roman Catholicism, much less in the way our friends on this forum would like to see it function (note that they are always complaining that the Magisterium doesn’t crack down on this or that!) But I do think that tradition needs a living authority to speak for it.

The choice, as I see it, is between no magisterium and a dysfunctional one. I suppose I should not complain about this, since that’s the kind of choice we face in most aspects of life.

Edwin

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Actually, what she said in her recent post (274) was that she encountered texts in Scripture that did not make sense in terms of her church’s understanding. She was told that “Roman Catholics” interpreted these texts literally, and since this interpretation made sense to her, she concluded that the Roman Catholics must be right. It seems to me that more would have to be involved–but as I said to her, it’s counterproductive to argue with people about their own experience.

Edwin

I think it substantially the same thing. She concluded that her SDA faith was incorrect, and had “heard” that RC’s interpreted as she believed it should be. In any case you are right, it probably is counterproductive to argue about experiences. My point was only that one couldn’t logically be lead to any existing church soley by reading the bible, because there is no named church in the NT. One has to learn about other denominations to then conclude that one is truer to the bible in one’s opinion.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I understand. Your view is certainly very common among Episcopalians.

And I’m not claiming that I would like to see the Magisterium function even quite the way it does in Roman Catholicism, much less in the way our friends on this forum would like to see it function (note that they are always complaining that the Magisterium doesn’t crack down on this or that!) But I do think that tradition needs a living authority to speak for it.

The choice, as I see it, is between no magisterium and a dysfunctional one. I suppose I should not complain about this, since that’s the kind of choice we face in most aspects of life.

Edwin

Edwin, I would love to discuss the relative merits or not of a magisterium type heirarchy. And clearly this would be the sub forum for it. but I’m afraid it would turn into something quite different. Your opinion would be welcome. I think I see you point,but I’m thinking the downside is way bigger than the upside. I’d be willing to start a thread, but as I said, I don’t want it turning into a Catholic/Protestant debate, or worse yet, the claim that was made to me, that we can’t have one cuz the very name belongs to the RCC. I’m finding that some here are very selfish with their names of things. LOL.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Just read a huge article from the Christian Science Monitor that Evangelicals will be gone within 10 years due to the fact they are too much into their Megachurches, and they don’t teach the truth from the Word of God.

with any luck all religion will be extinct in ten years … but I’m pretty sure it will take humanity a bit longer to stop thinking we need an invisible friend?

 

[always_gr8ful]

Sure it would. Because once you accepted that truth you would have to do something. Thats where the strings were attached. You would either accept the affair, and acknowledge it and live that way, or you would not accept it and refuse to accept it. But those are the strings. Everything in this world has strings attached.

For RC its ten very large strings. They are called the TEN COMMANDMENTS. Are commandments not strings?

Rinnie, without getting into your doctrain that I know nothing about, God’s Word says Salvation is a gift. A gift can’t really be a gift if there are strings attached. It would be like my sister Jonie handing me a gift and saying “Now you can only have this gift if you believe I’m your sister”. Well, duh! I already believe she’s my sister. So where’s the string?

 

[a_burger]

The “monstrosity” is in the tacit claim that reading the Bible led you to Catholicism on its own, without (name removed by moderator)ut from sources not acknowledged as valid by the church to which you belonged at the time. I just don’t believe this claim, and one of the reasons I don’t believe it is my experience with people making exactly this claim for their abandonment of Catholicism or orthodoxy for sola-scriptura Protestantism. (For instance, the Romanian Orthodox priests who founded the Plymouth Brethren in Romania claimed to have come to their views based on the Bible alone–but you read their story in a bit more detail and you find that they were reading Plymouth Brethren tracts.) But at least in that case it makes sense that they would remember their own story that way, since the theology of the group to which they converted naturally led them to do so. For Catholics to mischaracterize their own experience in this way is truly a monstrosity.

No one comes to any conclusion based on the Bible alone. Anyone who is truly closed to perspectives outside their own tradition will remain in that tradition until they die. This is what Marsha is trying to deny, and she’s flying in the face of plausibility in doing so. I don’t think either of you are lying–I think you are failing to consider carefully enough how many influences are involved in leading any human being to do anything, and your failure to do this is directly related to the religious traditions that shaped you (rather than to the Catholicism you now profess).

Edwin

 

[a_burger]

The Catholic religion is Bible based. Our service is the most Bible based service of any Christian religion. Many Catholics are not saved, however, because their good works are based upon human effort. These good deeds are considered dirty rags to God as expressed in the OT.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Do you not realiize the Catholic Church is the largest evangelical church in the world? We are a megachurch and will still be evangelizing in 10 years. People like Osteen are not evangelizing but spreading the ‘name it claim it’ gospel. And he has claimed a lot of it. I hope the camel he rides can fit through the eye of the needle.

Yep. My mom watches him so I do too so we’ll have something to talk about. I’ve pointed a few things out and she’s coming around.
But if I hear Joel say “We call things that be not as though they were” one more time I’m gonna throw a remote. That would be GOD who calls things that be not…

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi a burger! I’ve enjoyed your posts.

Marsha, I totally get your humor and have enjoyed your posts too, and can relate to the foundation of Truth where you are coming from. I, too guard my heart and mind. If that makes me narrow and close-minded, so be it. Hate to use a cliché, but “if you believe in nothing, you’ll fall for anything”.

 

[Contarini]

The Catholic religion is Bible based. Our service is the most Bible based service of any Christian religion.

How is the Catholic Mass more “Bible based” than the Anglican liturgy, which follows almost exactly the same structure? So do the official liturgies of the Methodists, the Lutherans, and some other Protestants as well (though in these churches many congregations don’t follow this structure).

Many Catholics are not saved, however, because their good works are based upon human effort.

I have generally found Catholics to have a very strong sense of their sinfulness and a humble reliance on God’s grace. In practice, I think that works righteousness may be far more common among evangelical Protestants than among Catholics (evangelical Protestants claim to believe in salvation by faith alone, but see their piety and good works as evidence that they are “saved” while other professing Christians aren’t, and this leads to a great deal of self-righteousness). The problem with Catholic soteriology, as I see it, is that they separate faith from good works too much, so that people who know themselves to be in a state of sin do not have a clear understanding of how to return to a right relationship with God (since the traditional Catholic teaching is that such people already have faith). I don’t think this is a fatal problem, since I don’t think we are saved by clear understanding (and frankly my argument for the Protestant position here is at least as much pragmatic as it is Biblical). But it does seem to lead to a lot of confusion among Catholics and to a weakness in “internal evangelization” (i.e., bringing those who profess the faith into a living faith that works through love) on which Protestants unfortunately capitalize.

Edwin

 

[SJP0309]

Just read a huge article from the Christian Science Monitor that Evangelicals will be gone within 10 years due to the fact they are too much into their Megachurches, and they don’t teach the truth from the Word of God.

I read the same article and did not understand it the same as you did. While the church “at large” might see a decline in membership (including Catholics), the point I thought the writer was making is that the end result would be a smaller, stronger, more committed group of believers. He did say that the Catholic Church might find some people returning to Catholism as a result of liberal churches attempting to accomodate the culture rather than stand separate from it. With that I agree and have personally encountered some Protestants that are more accepting of gays and pro-choice members. As a result it wouldn’t surprise me to find the more conservative members of such churches leave and attend a mainline conservative church (such as Catholic). Time will tell, but I didn’t read him as saying that the Protestant church would be extinct.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

with any luck all religion will be extinct in ten years … but I’m pretty sure it will take humanity a bit longer to stop thinking we need an invisible friend?

One question, why would you think that Calvin described the meaning of Scripture better than say St. Jerome?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, without getting into your doctrain that I know nothing about, God’s Word says Salvation is a gift. A gift can’t really be a gift if there are strings attached. It would be like my sister Jonie handing me a gift and saying “Now you can only have this gift if you believe I’m your sister”. Well, duh! I already believe she’s my sister. So where’s the string?

Okay here is why you are getting confused. Now yes salvation is a free gift from God. IT is a Grace. You didn’t earn it. ITs free. But now do you want that gift, and do you want to keep it. See what I mean.

Scripture teaches that ones final Salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. Jesus himself says He who endures to the end will be saved(matt 24-13)

See Jesus did die on the cross for our sins, and entered into heaven to appear on our behalf yes. Christ has provided for our salvation. But that does not mean there is no process by which this is applied to each one of us.

There is a process or else we would have been born saved and would not have to repent or have faith or anything else. that would be it.

We would have been born saved and have no need to be born again. But Jesus did not say that. He said we must be reborn in Christ and since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time we must be reconciled to God.

Look at Adam and Eve, they had received Gods free grace too, unmerited just like us, they not only lost it, they lost if for us too.

So thats really the point, yes Salvation is a free gift from God, its a grace. We didn’t earn it, but we can accept it or reject it. Now here is the hard part, accept it and you must accept God and Gods word. Reject it and you give into sin. Its as simple really as that. Now how can you accept this free gift and then sin. But see we do, that is what happened in the O.T. Thats why Jesus came to free us. He said he would not leave us orphans. He left us this time with the word, the Church, the Priests. The priest can forgive our sin, thats how we keep our free gift. We must repent and be sorry for our sin, and its forgiven. But if we don’t repent our sin, then we did not accept God free gift. Does that make sense? So yes its a free gift, IF WE ACCEPT IT. But its our choice. Just how you can lose a gift, you can lose salvation. Say I buy you a watch, a beautiful watch, no strings, you accept it, then you lose it. You lost that free gift did you not. Just because Salvation is a free gift, does not mean you cannot lose it!

 

[rinnie]

Also of I may add. That is why you hear Salvation is only through the Catholic Church. Show me one protestant Preacher who claims they can forgive sin. You won’t! But you will hear it in the Catholic Church. And we have the bible to back us up.

John 20:22-23 RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHOS SINS YOU FORGIVE ARE FORGIVEN THEM. WHO SINS YOU RETAIN ARE RETAINED.

My own Mother in law just told me this the other day, She said that my Priest has no authority. Her faith rejects this scripture. How I do not understand?

 

[a_burger]

with any luck all religion will be extinct in ten years … but I’m pretty sure it will take humanity a bit longer to stop thinking we need an invisible friend?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Also of I may add. That is why you hear Salvation is only through the Catholic Church. Show me one protestant Preacher who claims they can forgive sin. You won’t! But you will hear it in the Catholic Church. And we have the bible to back us up.

John 20:22-23 RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHOS SINS YOU FORGIVE ARE FORGIVEN THEM. WHO SINS YOU RETAIN ARE RETAINED.

My own Mother in law just told me this the other day, She said that my Priest has no authority. Her faith rejects this scripture. How I do not understand?

Rennie for your edification:

Every Sunday we recite:

Most merciful God,
we confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart,
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and hwe humbly repent.
For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ,
have mercy on us and forgive us,
that we may delight in your will,
and walk in your ways,
to the glory of your Name. Amen

The Priest alone stands and says: (while making the sign of the cross on the congregation I would add)

Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, keep you in eternal life, Amen.

We of course have the ability to ask for private confession.

This prayer is located in the BCP, and actually can be said privately as well. I say it twice a day during the week as part of the general morning and evening office.

Now you are aware that your statement is not correct.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Still waiting for humbleindoubt’s answer

 

[always_gr8ful]

Okay here is why you are getting confused. Now yes salvation is a free gift from God. IT is a Grace. You didn’t earn it. ITs free. But now do you want that gift, and do you want to keep it. See what I mean?

Rinnie, No. I don’t see it.
After I believe, I want that gift. My belief is not a string because I already believe. I can’t imagine anyone calling belief a string unless they were hiding from the Light. We all make choices in life. Choices do not equal stings attached. A family member dies. The attorney calls and says “Come pick up your inheritance check”. Free money- no strings. I can choose to pick up the check or not. If I choose not to, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a check waiting with my name on it.

As to “and do you want to keep it” - “For God so loved that world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes, repents, says 10 hail Marys, is baptized and keep the commandments, shall not perish but have everlasting life.”

Is that what God’s Word says? No.

Don’t you think that something as important as our salvation would be made clear in scripture? That’s why all apparent contradictions need to be personally investigated and reconciled based on the foundation that every Word of scripture is Truth. You said "Jesus himself says He who endures to the end will be saved(matt 24-13)
Matthew 24 is Jesus speaking about the Tribulation, and I don’t plan on being here to “endure to the end” when God pours out His wrath upon the world. The church (the body of Christ) is promised to be saved from the wrath to come, so we won’t be around. Jesus is speaking to Jews (and any others I would presume) who will be saved in those last days.

I would have to ponder and study “once saved always saved”. I don’t recall any mention of a easer when speaking of the Book of Life. Seems that something as important as LOSING your salvation would be spelled out clearly. It has been my experience that those who are supposedly saved, yet show no evidence, were never saved in the first place - Just my opinion on that matter.