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dorisbonkers
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Can I (respectfully) ask what you were doing or saying to get nearly arrested? I’m intrigued.
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santodomingo
Guest
I´ve replied in a private message, so as not to derail the thread.
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LilyM
Guest
I don’t see the problem. Church teaching on contraception does derive from Papal teaching on the issue - as contained in Papal encyclicals and other Papal documents such as Casti Connubii and Humanae Vitae. So by your logic since these documents are Papal teaching then they certainly can be infallible.
Whether they actually are or not is dependent on their subject matter (which has to be an definitiive teaching on an issue to do with faith and morals) and their intent (whether the teaching is intended to apply to the whole Church and be binding upon all for all time).
Now the Papal document doesn’t have to say precisely ‘I intend this to be a definitive teaching on faith and morals and binding on all Catholics for all time’ for it to be clear that it IS intended to be those things, and thus infallible.
Now there can be little doubt that either Humanae Vitae itself, or at least the teaching it contains, which is backed up by other Papal documents that preceded it, it is in fact infallible Papal teaching.
Since the teaching is about the morality (rightness or wrongness) of artificial birth control, it certainly falls under the ‘faith and morals’ category. And Paul VI and his predecessors clearly, when one reads them, didn’t intend to say that artificial birth control is only wrong for some people some of the time either, but rather that it is pretty much always and in all circumstances wrong.
What Vatican officials may say about it, or whether they disagree on its infallibility, doesn’t matter one little bit - their opinion about a Papal teaching doesn’t make it fallible or infallible, all that matters is if it’s clear from the documents themselves that the conditions for infallibility are met.
And it is clear, in the case of Humanae Vitae and its preceding documents, when one comes to read them.
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Jimdandy
Guest
santodomingo,
If this man asks you about the Church’s reasoning regarding homosexuality you could just explain that the Trinity is a family of three loving each other, and the human family is based on this type of love-the father, the mother, and the child they create out of love.
We all sin-continue to hate the sin, while loving the sinner.
If this man asks you about the Church’s reasoning regarding homosexuality you could just explain that the Trinity is a family of three loving each other, and the human family is based on this type of love-the father, the mother, and the child they create out of love.
We all sin-continue to hate the sin, while loving the sinner.
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Zemod
Guest
LilyM, but there is still great discussion whether Humanae Vitae is indeed infallible, so apparentely there is lot of doubt. Even in this forum, here. And there are very many bishops and theologians who would say it is not infallible.
It is not any Papal teaching that is infallible, there are certain conditions for it to be so (I’m sorry to not have been explicit on that), as you wiil know better than me.
It is not any Papal teaching that is infallible, there are certain conditions for it to be so (I’m sorry to not have been explicit on that), as you wiil know better than me.
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LilyM
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You know that a Papal teaching can be infallible even if every other person on earth apart from the Pope disagrees with the teaching and thinks it is fallible? The Pope teaches with the authority of Christ. Christ’s truth is true even if the whole world disagrees with it. So what the bishops and theologians think about Humanae Vitae really doesn’t matter in the slightest.
As for Artificial Birth Control, there are many reasons why what is expressed in Humanae Vitae IS infallible teaching quite apart from the document itself. See you need to examine the truth and evidence behind what is taught in a Papal document, or any other, and whether it genuinely comes to us from Apostolic teaching and Apostolic times, to determine its infallibility, and not just look at the method by which it is taught.
For one it has been absolutely and utterly consistent teaching of ALL Christian churches - each and every one - from the very earliest days of Christianity that artificial birth control was wrong. Birth control has existed since before the time of Christ and has been written and taught about since then too, and unanimously condemned - not until 1930 did ANY Christian Church teach that it might be OK.
So it is what is called ‘Apostolic teaching’ that ABC is wrong. Apostolic teaching refers to those truths that have always been unanimously known and taught since earliest times of Christianity. And ANY Papal statement that reiterates consistent Apostolic teaching IS infallible, since it is dictated by the same Holy Spirit that has preserved that teaching down the centuries.
Now I ask you, why would God change His mind about contraception all of a sudden in the 1930s? It’s not a minor detail that He would be OK to change, EVER. It is a crucial truth of God, and surely is something that He would ALWAYS be entirely OK with or entirely against and not change His mind on in a billion years.
So, either artificial contraception was always wrong and the entire Christian world had it right for 1930 years, or for 1930 years every single Christian leader was completely wrong, taught serious error on an issue of critical importance, and were NOT protected and guided by the Holy Spirit in this teaching.
In other words if you believe contraception is OK then you belive that the gates of Hell prevailed, and Christ’s promises are useless and worthless, and that he hasn’t protected His truth in His church’s teachings, but let us be led most seriously astray for 1930 years!
To understand a bit better, try starting here - catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp - which explains it in much more detail.
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Zemod
Guest
I don’t believe God has changed his mind. I think the Holy Spirit has not protected the Church in a lot of things throughout history. I think essentialy the Church’s teaching is correct. The teaching on contraception is not part of that essence…
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santodomingo
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As I wrote before, the Church´s teaching on **faith and morals **is infallible. This has nothing to do with political issues such as the Pontificial States, slavery (I believe you mentioned it), democracy, women´s suffrage, etc. Neither has it anything to do with abuses or bad individual or collective behaviour, bad methods (the inquisition) or poor worship music in your parish.
The issue in hand is homosexuality, and contraception has also crept in somehow. Both are MORAL issues on which the Church has said plenty (not to mention both the Old and New Testament)Homosexual acts and the use of contraception are sinful, as the Church has always taught. There is no ambiguity there.
Maybe your catholic friends have misinformed you that there is some kind of “debate” going on in the Church, and that you may legitimately take any stance regarding these two issues. They are wrong, for a very simple reason; the CC is NOT a democracy. It is far more like a monarchy, with one clear leader, as Christ Himself wished. To go against official papal teaching on homosexuality is to go against Christ. It´s as serious as that.
You must be an intelligent person, so there is nothing here that you don´t understand. The real reason you don´t want to acknowledge this is because it would mean rethinking and rebuilding your whole lifestyle. It would be painful I imagine, but you have to ask yourself “would it be worth it to trust God?” I think it would!
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Zemod
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My friends have very informed people, Santo Domingo. And very respected within the Catholic Church. You can claim that they are all wrong, but that would be very strange. Saying that going against the official papal teaching on homosexuality is to go against Christ strikes me as way too far-fetched.Maybe your catholic friends have misinformed you that there is some kind of “debate” going on in the Church, and that you may legitimately take any stance regarding these two issues. They are wrong, for a very simple reason; the CC is NOT a democracy. It is far more like a monarchy, with one clear leader, as Christ Himself wished. To go against official papal teaching on homosexuality is to go against Christ. It´s as serious as that.
You must be an intelligent person, so there is nothing here that you don´t understand. The real reason you don´t want to acknowledge this is because it would mean rethinking and rebuilding your whole lifestyle. It would be painful I imagine, but you have to ask yourself “would it be worth it to trust God?” I think it would!
Of course the Church is not a democracy, but there are debates on many issues. In councils they debate, the theologians always debate (and the current Pope is quite a theologian himself and on the defence of furtherning the discussions). Popes are not always correct either.
As for me not wanting to understand what you say because I do not want to rebuild my life, that’s very speculative and very much not true. I follow my conscience, which is certainly not limited to reading and following the cathecism. At the end of the day, each one of us is responsible for their own lives, and though it may feel safer to blindly follow written rules, one has to judge for himself (obviously not neglecting nor ignoring those rules, but learning as much as possible from them).
In any case, I’ve just finished reading a couple of other topics on this forum and realised that it’s a bit silly for me to be here. It will most likely be seen as a provocation or lead to conversations where no one will have any type of profit. And I will be missinterpreted, no matter what I say. I will stop posting here. All the best for everyone.
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