Evangelizing Baptists

[maesoph]

Dear All:

Having discussions with a Baptist friend and need to know where the best apologetics material is for that brand of Christianity. Seems to hold real fast to the proverbial OSAS dogma…

Please help.

 

[BlestOne]

biblechristiansociety.com

 

[Baraq]

Today…An OSAS Baptist is generally a dispensationalist. Dispensational heresy is based mainly on eschatology(a pre trib rapture and a Christian ruled 1000 yr reign) and omits much of the Bible for their lack of edification. Ask your friend if they say the Lords Prayer in Church, or even the Apostles Creed(they dont). Dispensationalists have to jump thru many hoops to promise a 1000 yr reign of immortal dispensationalists over mortal rebels, along the way omiting much of the NT & OT.

These Churches often condemn Roman Catholics to perdition, which you can use to your advantage. Ask why they dont(& cant per their false teachers) recite the Lords Prayer, Apostles Creed, & Sermon on the Mount. Then ask why a perdition bound RCC member can while they cant.

Another course is to confront the pre trib rapture heresy head on, and the Reformed Church(My Church) has many books confronting this(Im sure RCC does too) The goal being to have them understand salvation is being reconciled to God and not a mere ticket for a pre trib rapture.

There is an ole saying " Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die to get there"

 

[maesoph]

I have already been to biblechristiansociety and have most of their tapes. As for rapture, he doesn’t really follow the rapture (much to my surprise).

 

[Baraq]

If he isnt a pre trib rapturist, maybe we shouldnt put him in the OSAS box? He might not need evangelizing, he might already be orthodox in beliefs

 

[Nita]

Today…An OSAS Baptist is generally a dispensationalist. Dispensational heresy is based mainly on eschatology(a pre trib rapture and a Christian ruled 1000 yr reign) and omits much of the Bible for their lack of edification. Ask your friend if they say the Lords Prayer in Church, or even the Apostles Creed(they dont). Dispensationalists have to jump thru many hoops to promise a 1000 yr reign of immortal dispensationalists over mortal rebels, along the way omiting much of the NT & OT.

These Churches often condemn Roman Catholics to perdition, which you can use to your advantage. Ask why they dont(& cant per their false teachers) recite the Lords Prayer, Apostles Creed, & Sermon on the Mount. Then ask why a perdition bound RCC member can while they cant.

"

Hi Baraq,
I had never heard of Baptists (dispensationalist or otherwise) not being allowed to recite the underlined prayers. Is this any sort of general regulation? What reason do they give?

Nita

 

[Baraq]

Hi Nita ,
Dispensationalists break up the word of God into Eras, they call this age the “Dispensation of Grace” Under the dispensation of Grace, in their view, much of scripture does not apply(like the Lords Prayer- can you imagine the changes they would need to make before it would fit their doctrine?)

They call the Lords Prayer the ‘Apostles Prayer’. Like the Sermon on the mount, they will say that these statements were only for a ‘Jewish’ generation when they were ‘offered’ the kingdom. Their story continues, since they declined the kingdom these words no longer apply.(in their view)

While this doctrine started with Darby more than a century ago, its changed quite a bit over the years. I am quoting something known as ‘3rd wave’ dispensationalism. This doctrine changes so fast, that its hard to pin it down and I cant say if its changed since I looked into it 5 yrs ago. Basically its seduction is violence and turmoil in the mideast, these news stories are used to convince the listener that Armageddon is at the door and to accept Christ before its too late

 

[lak611]

Hi Nita ,
Dispensationalists break up the word of God into Eras, they call this age the “Dispensation of Grace” Under the dispensation of Grace, in their view, much of scripture does not apply(like the Lords Prayer- can you imagine the changes they would need to make before it would fit their doctrine?)

They call the Lords Prayer the ‘Apostles Prayer’. Like the Sermon on the mount, they will say that these statements were only for a ‘Jewish’ generation when they were ‘offered’ the kingdom. Their story continues, since they declined the kingdom these words no longer apply.(in their view)

While this doctrine started with Darby more than a century ago, its changed quite a bit over the years. I am quoting something known as ‘3rd wave’ dispensationalism. This doctrine changes so fast, that its hard to pin it down and I cant say if its changed since I looked into it 5 yrs ago. Basically its seduction is violence and turmoil in the mideast, these news stories are used to convince the listener that Armageddon is at the door and to accept Christ before its too late

Here is something that gives a response to Dispensationalism. catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp

 

[Baraq]

lak, Thanks for the link on the Catholic position. Ours in the Reformed Church share many of the same points. Notably the conflict between Christian creeds and the dispensational doctrine.

 

[Pax]

OSAS is really big among Baptists. PM me for a list of 60 + verses of scripture that refute the doctrine. Make sure you give me your email address because the file is too large to send as a PM.

The file I can provide is written in “Word” and most passages have highlighting and bold formatting for emphasizing important words and phrases.

If you have any other specific areas that you wish to address with your friend and want some help, feel free to PM me or simply bring it up on this thread and everyone can chime in.

 

[rtconstant]

As was stated before breaking up dispensationalism (which is very weak) is a good move. So many fundamentalists believe it so fully that when they know the history and realize that it has no Biblical basis it really hit home for them. I have a Baptist buddy at work that because of our conversations (but mostly the Holy Spirit) has already abandoned the belief. I can also say that since this has happened he has these mixed feelings of interest and fear over learning more about Catholicism.

 

[mlldrl]

You might check out this site.

members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html

I’ve not look at it much but what I’ve seen seems to be okay.

 

[allischalmers]

I would like to tell you all that none of you know very much about Baptist. Baptist do not teach dispensationism very much any more if at all. The Scofield Bible is not a big thing anough Baptist anymore like it was sixty or more years ago. But we are still teaching the fulness of the TRUTH

Proud to be Baptist
allischalmers

 

[Pax]

I would agree that my baptist acquaintances do not sound much like dispensationalists. I would, however, argue that they all bear witness to the doctrine of OSAS.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I would like to tell you all that none of you know very much about Baptist. Baptist do not teach dispensationism very much any more if at all. The Scofield Bible is not a big thing anough Baptist anymore like it was sixty or more years ago. But we are still teaching the fulness of the TRUTH

Proud to be Baptist
allischalmers

When do Baptists teach the fullness of truth? Back when they taught dispensationalism, or now when they don’t? If dispensationalism is wrong then if Baptists are teaching it, then the Baptist tradition cannot be the fullness of truth when it did. So my question to you Mr. Chalmers is: When did the Baptists stop teaching error and start teaching the truth?

 

[DaveBj]

I came from that milieu, and I think what may be a little more effective than harping on OSAS might be the matter of authority. Who is your authority on biblical interpretation? How does the precept of individual interpretation of the Scriptures lead to Christ’s command for unity within His Body? That kind of thing.

DaveBj

 

[stinkcat_14]

I came from that milieu, and I think what may be a little more effective than harping on OSAS might be the matter of authority. Who is your authority on biblical interpretation? How does the precept of individual interpretation of the Scriptures lead to Christ’s command for unity within His Body? That kind of thing.

DaveBj

The issue of authority probably explains why there are so many different types of baptists. It seems like I am always learning about new kinds.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why does the Holy Spirit tell all of those different types of Baptists different things?

Why do we never hear in the letters of Paul praise for a board of deacons firing someone he sent or breaking off and starting a new church?

Does the same Holy Spirt speak to the freewill baptists and to the once saved always saved baptists?

One last thing–Baptists profess to believe in the priesthood of all believers. If that is so then why do they fire preachers who exercise that priesthood in a different way than what they want to exercise it?

If they really believe in the priesthood of all believers wouldn’t they respect the Holy Spirit speaking to one Baptist different than another Baptist?

Or is the real deal that they either KNOW that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak the truth in different voices or that they think only the way they THINK He speaks to them is right and the other Baptists are wrong–but let’s not admit that because it just doesn’t seem nice and tolerant.

If you’re one of those Baptists check out the Catholic Church where the whole Mass is nothing but Bible and where the Holy Spirit has spoke the same for the last 2,000 years!

 

[rtconstant]

While it is true that more Baptists are starting to question dispensationalism to say that it really isn’t taught anymore isn’t really honest. My entire and family is Baptist as was I and dispensationalism was part and parcel with it.

Now some of the more liberal Baptist churches have never really held to it. However, Baptist churches that espouse fundamentalism (which is a significant number) will for the most part hold to dispensationalism. Last time I checked the Independant Baptist denomination assume this doctrine and teach it in their seminaries.

 

[allischalmers]

Why does the Holy Spirit tell all of those different types of Baptists different things?

He doesn’t! I have been a Sunday School Superintendent iin a Baptist chruch for a good number of years and have studied the material provided by all the publishers for Baptist Sunday Schools and there is NO contradiction.

Why do we never hear in the letters of Paul praise for a board of deacons firing someone he sent or breaking off and starting a new church?

We don’t! A Baptist board of deacons can not fire a pastor. Baptist churches are always training people to go into the world to start new Baptist churches. we have had great success doing this in Brazil.

Does the same Holy Spirt speak to the freewill baptists and to the once saved always saved baptists?

Of course. Freewillers also believe in osas

One last thing–Baptists profess to believe in the priesthood of all believers. If that is so then why do they fire preachers who exercise that priesthood in a different way than what they want to exercise it?

If they really believe in the priesthood of all believers wouldn’t they respect the Holy Spirit speaking to one Baptist different than another Baptist?

Or is the real deal that they either KNOW that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak the truth in different voices or that they think only the way they THINK He speaks to them is right and the other Baptists are wrong–but let’s not admit that because it just doesn’t seem nice and tolerant.

I repled to the earlier

If you’re one of those Baptists check out the Catholic Church where the whole Mass is nothing but Bible and where the Holy Spirit has spoke the same for the last 2,000 years!

I checked out the Catholic Church and want no part of its errors

Proud to be baptist
allischalmers