Evangelizing Fellow Catholics re. Orthodox and Historically Traditional Marian Devotion?

[TimothyH]

To Jesus, through Mary… This thread is for those Catholics who have a strong devotion to Mary.

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Some Catholics are bothered by what they see as “Over the top” devotion to our Blessed Mother. These may see a Catholic who outwardly venerates Mary - prays the rosary, reads a Marian devotional, etc - while at the same time having no outward or visible devotion to Christ as having stopped short of the goal as he goes to Jesus through Mary. To these otherwise devout and orthodox Catholics, it appears that Mary is given greater honor and reverence than Christ himself. It appears as if the Catholic devoted to Mary could never get past Mary or get around Mary on his way to Jesus through Mary.

Going further, these hear of such things as “Total Consecration to the Blessed Virgin” and it scares them. To them, it appears as if there is either an artificial insertion of a creature between the believer and his personal relationship with the creator, or even an outright diefication of Mary - veneration and honor beyond that which she is due and worship of her in a way in which only God deserves. That any Catholic would claim that Mary could be responsible for distributing all grace to every human everywhere and at all times is unfathomable to them, a usurpation of God’s divine prerogative, and when these good Catholics hear another Catholic say as much, they blanch at what appears to be the cult of “Mary as God”.

How can we convince these otherwises devout and orthodox Catholics that this is not the case? What techniques or arguments or modes of communication or texts can be used to communicate to these Catholics that though outward appearance may make it seem so, there is no abandonment of Christ in favor of Mary and that things like total consecration to the Blessed virgin are not “Over the top” or extreme in any way, but rather, quite orthodox and traditional?

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Having asked the question, I have full confidence that the thread will quickly turn into a debate about “Over the Top” devotion to Mary. “It’s over the top!” “No it’s not!” “Saint so-and-so never said anything about Mary!” Pope Such-and-Such said that Mary was the key to salvation!" “Oh yea, that’s making Mary out to be God!!!” But that’s not the point of this post. I prayed before I posted this that I will have the strength to focus on the on topic posts.

For Catholics with a strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin, and you Eastern guys should chime in too…

What I am really after here is apologetics. How do we evangelize our own? How do we communicate to our fellow members of Christ’s body that strong devotion to the Blessed virgin is the quickest, easiest and most direct route to Christ, and that the stronger one’s devotion to Mary is, the strong one’s relationship with Christ will be? How do we help our fellow Catholics return to the orthodoxy of Marian devotion - the kind of devotion where people marched down the streets with statues of the Blessed Virgin on her feast days and where if you asked if Mary was the Mediatrix of all Grace, everyone would say “Of course” and no one would raise an eyebrow?

I love my brothers and sisters, fellow members of Christ’s Body. I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong, or to force anyone to pray in a certain way or to make anyone love Jesus differently than he cares to. I love all of you too much to do that. I just want to share my joy and quiet any fear.

May the peace of Christ be with you all.

-Tim-

 

[Allegra]

From my perspective as a life-long Catholic, my only concern about Marian devotions is when I hear people say things that are not real teachings of the Church, such as calling Mary part of the Trinity. Lots of Catholics suffer from bad Catechism and don’t know what they’re saying.

Traditional Marian devotions are not the problem as they are rooted in the true teachings of the Church. Newer Catholics might feel differently though about Mary. My best guess would be to make sure that one accurately explains the theology behind the devotions, but not take it personally if a Catholic, especially a newer one, doesn’t jump right on board with prayer to Mary. After all, a Catholic doesn’t have to observe every single devotion invented in the entire history of Christendom. Plus, we all know that God reveals himself to different people in different ways at different times on their personal journey.

 

[TrueLight]

Hi Timothy,

I know your post was written in love and I hope you will take my responses in the same spirit of love.

How can we convince these otherwises devout and orthodox Catholics that this is not the case?

Why should it be your goal to convince Catholics of such things. You may share how such devotions have brought grace to your life, but I don’t get why everyone must feel the same.

What techniques or arguments or modes of communication or texts can be used to communicate to these Catholics ……

I would much prefer to see such effort put into evangelizing to the non-Catholics about the love of Christ.

How do we communicate to our fellow members of Christ’s body that strong devotion to the Blessed virgin is the quickest, easiest and most direct route to Christ and that the stronger one’s devotion to Mary is, the strong one’s relationship with Christ will be?

Is this Church dogma?

I love my brothers and sisters, fellow members of Christ’s Body. I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong, or to force anyone to pray in a certain way or to make anyone love Jesus differently than he cares to….

Oh but you are.

I’d recommend reading or re-reading the Diary of St Maria Faustina. Whether you believe she actually spoke to Christ and that he spoke back to her daily or not (as we are not obligated to believe in private revelations), I think the diary is a perfect model of the wonderful relationship you can have with Christ and with Mary at the same time.

She speaks to and prays to Christ directly and he wants her to speak to him. She also speaks to our Mother directly a as well, and Mary guides her and counsels her. However, St Maria Faustina nurtures her relationship with Christ. And he is pleased.

 

[OraLabora]

Hi Timothy,

I know your post was written in love and I hope you will take my responses in the same spirit of love.

Why should it be your goal to convince Catholics of such things. You may share how such devotions have brought grace to your life, but I don’t get why everyone must feel the same.

I would much prefer to see such effort put into evangelizing to the non-Catholics about the love of Christ.

Is this Church dogma?

Oh but you are.

I’d recommend reading or re-reading the Diary of St Maria Faustina. Whether you believe she actually spoke to Christ and that he spoke back to her daily or not (as we are not obligated to believe in private revelations), I think the diary is a perfect model of the wonderful relationship you can have with Christ and with Mary at the same time.

She speaks to and prays to Christ directly and he wants her to speak to him. She also speaks to our Mother directly a as well, and Mary guides her and counsels her. However, St Maria Faustina nurtures her relationship with Christ. And he is pleased.

Good post for a “new” Catholic. Clearly you are approaching your new faith thoughtfully!

I look at Marian devotion as an issue of charism. While some do go “over the top” and in fact outside Church teaching, elevating Mary to the level of Jesus Christ, most thoughtful and well-catechized Catholics do not go over the top even when their devotion is extremely enthusiastic.

Nothing prevents healthy Marian devotion. It’s equally true though that nothing suggests that Marian devotion needs to be held to a very high degree by all. I don’t pray the Rosary for instance, mainly because I devote such a large part of my day to the Divine Office. My charism is to be drawn to the Benedictine order as an Oblate. Benedictines do, I believe have a healthy Marian devotion. To my mind it’s best expressed in the care with which they chant the final antiphon to the BVM at the end of Compline, which they follow with the Angelus, and also in the way they celebrate the optional memorial to the BVM on Saturdays when the rubrics allow it. There are few statues in Benedictine chapels, but invariably there is one of the Blessed Virgin and her Child!

There are some orders, and individuals, very drawn to Mary. Saint brother André had a deep devotion to St. Joseph. I am particularly attached to St. Benedict, St. Scholastica and other monastic saints: Bernard, Bruno, Placidus and Maurus, etc.

The important thing is that one’s devotion leads one to Christ. There is no need to “force” someone to follow a different route (charism) to Christ. The Church is open to all licit charisms. It’s one thing that separates us from Protestants, the fact that all charisms can find a place under the same roof, without the need to found a new denomination to accommodate the charism. In our Church we have people ranging from secluded monastic orders like the Carthusians to modern, colourful Pentecostalist movements such as Charismatic Catholics. Not every devotion is for everyone, but everyone who is devoted to Christ in his or her own way is welcome in the Church!

God bless!

 

[prettiefly]

“Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on His Mother. The more Mary is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son.” - Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

“Devotion to the Blessed Virgin in no way detracts from the Glory of God. Rather, it leads us directly back to that Author of all good, Who has willed her to be so great and so pure”. - Pope Pius Xll

“The reason why Christ is unknown today is because His Mother is unknown.” - Saint Cardinal John Henry Newman

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Timothy,

I know your post was written in love and I hope you will take my responses in the same spirit of love.

Why should it be your goal to convince Catholics of such things. You may share how such devotions have brought grace to your life, but I don’t get why everyone must feel the same.

I really want to say, “See, here we go…”, to shrug it off and abandon this thread right now. I do take your post in a spirit of love.

I’m not trying to get you or anyone else to think the way I do or pray the way I do or to have the same deovtions I do. Actually, I really couldn’t care less how other people pray and what devotions they have. It’s none of my business and its not my point.

My question is not about how to convince Catholics that they should be devoted to Mary, but how to convince Catholics that such devotions are entirely orthodox and nothing to be bothered by, afraid of, or ashamed of, that’s all.

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

But Catholics are being told by other Catholics that their devotion is over the top, incorrect, gone too far, deification of Mary, extreme, unorthodox, not consistent with sound doctrine, counter to the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, an abandonment of Jesus, etc., and that simply isn’t true.

-Tim-

And some are being told directly or by implication that they are somehow lacking if they don’t have a strong Marian devotion.

How do we communicate to our fellow members of Christ’s body that strong devotion to the Blessed virgin is the quickest, easiest and most direct route to Christ, and that the stronger one’s devotion to Mary is, the strong one’s relationship with Christ will be?

One can infer from the above that someone with a strong Marian devotion has a stronger relationship with Christ than someone who does not have a strong Marian devotion. Does this seem right to you?

I also believe that sort of thinking makes it easy to fall into the temptation of being prideful.

 

[TimothyH]

And some are being told directly or by implication that they are somehow lacking if they don’t have a strong Marian devotion.

One can infer from the above that someone with a strong Marian devotion has a stronger relationship with Christ than someone who does not have a strong Marian devotion. Does this seem right to you?

I also believe that sort of thinking makes it easy to fall into the temptation of being prideful.

I thought I had been careful in my posts not to do that. And quite frankly, this type of discussion is not germain to my question, on how to convince Catholics that marian devotion is orthodox and mainstream.

I’m sorry TL, I love you as a fellow member of Christ’s body, but will stick to my original qeustion and not discuss this tangential topic futher. You quote me too fast anyway .

-Tim-

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I did the DeMontfort consecration back in 2003.

One of the things I have found over the ensuing years is that my spiritual practices have been increasing. It started with the rosary (and yes that is still a focus) to include the Liturgy of the Hours and both Scriptural readings as well as commentary on Scripture and the Church (most recently Benedict XVI’s “Jesus of Nazareth”).

So it might help if we can give people who are concerned that kind of practical detail which shows a very balanced and Christocentric picture as opposed to them thinking that we ‘only’ pray the Rosary (which some think is ‘Mary-centric’). If instead of picturing us mumbling on our beads they see that we’ve been led by this to practices like Bible reading and study and daily Mass they might remember the Scripture about how ‘good trees produce good fruit’.

Also it might help if we can also demonstrate, not perhaps by word but deed, that again the devotion leads to our ACTING more Christ-like. If the people who are known to venerate Mary are also seen to be faithful in Church attendance, charitable in speech, prudent, generous, thoughtful, caring, patient, kind, not ‘snobbish’ but also not grovelingly ‘reverse snobs’, treating each person around them in a Christ-like manner, again, it would show ‘good trees bear good fruit’.

That’s why I always so pleased when I read posts from people who keep on patiently and with good humor and kindness responding to "Mariolatry’ posters without snapping or sneering. Because that IS the way to show that devotion to Mary leads to greater devotion to Jesus and more Christ-like behavior.

 

[TimothyH]

That’s why I always so pleased when I read posts from people who keep on patiently and with good humor and kindness responding to "Mariolatry’ posters without snapping or sneering. Because that IS the way to show that devotion to Mary leads to greater devotion to Jesus and more Christ-like behavior.

Perhaps this is what I need to hear, rather than anything else.

Thank you.

-Tim-