Evangelizing Jehovah's Witnesses

[catsrus]

originally posted by AveChriste11
I find them to be a very intellectually based people

I don’t know how many jws you know but having spent 18 months of my life “studying” with them, I found very few intellectuals among them at all. An intellectual will research continually to get to the root of a thought or idea. Every jw I knew was barely high school educated, if that, and only one I knew had a college degree which was earned long before he became a jw.
They are discouraged , especially the young ones, from furthering their educations because it is seen as a waste of time. Armageddon is any minute now, you see.
Any jw with even a smattering of the intellectual in him/her, will not long remain a jw.

 

[AveChriste11]

True Catsrus,

The one I know is no longer a JW. Yet I still find that his pride keeps him from ever accepting such things as the Trinity, once you’re programmed to think a certain way it seems very difficult to undo that.

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon,

The Church has a completely different understanding of everything you just said.

By church, I gather you mean the Catholic Church. I can’t say that you‘re wrong. I wouldn’t be much disturbed if you were right. That said, would you tell me how your church differs with what I said? For instance, can you tell me which particular things I said vs which particular understandings of the church?

I would often think though, that if everything were simply as you explained it then St. Thomas would not have been martyred while starting the Malankara Church.

I think St. Thomas may have simply run into the wrong people.

The idea of the Christ consciousness, is evident Nestorianism saying that Jesus is made up of two persons (1) the man, and (2) the Christ. We believe that Jesus is made up of two natures, one completely divine and one completely human that are fused into one person. This teaching is called the hypostatic union, and clearly affirms his manhood and his Deity.

I guess I’ll be guilty of being too simple again, but I just see him as God. My life is getting shorter by the day. I don’t have time to form an intellectual grasp of Jesus or anything else that is well beyond my intellectual comprehension. He is not knowable on that level. He is not, however, beyond the comprehension of the heart. He can be known fully there.

You can not even say that Christ was born as a man, and only later became Christ when the Holy Spirit descended upon him at his baptism in the Jordan. That teaching too has also been condemned by the Church, and we know that what she speaks must be true for she has sit at the very feet of Jesus Christ himself and bears witness to the direct succession of the Apostles who were the chelas or disciples of Christ.

I don’t recall that I said that Jesus later became Christ. The Christ Consciousness has always been and always will be.

Truth is still truth, whether any of us choose to hold onto it or not. A heresy is still heresy, no matter how many believe it. It should be noted that a heresy, is nothing more than a choice to believe something that is not correct doctrine, and correct worship.

Heresy and blasphemy walk hand in hand. Churches have used these terms liberally over time. There is a long history of this. We should take care to remember that Jesus had these same terms flung at him by the church of the time. If Jesus were to take on simple human form again today the churches wouldn’t do this to Him again. This is because I am relatively certain that He wouldn’t be able to get an appointment with any of them. They’d probably miss Him again. Gos has a way of happening while you’re busy looking for something else.

We know what is incorrect through ecumenical councils, when Peter speaks as Bishop of Rome, and when the other Bishops reach a consensus.

Are you sure that’ what you wanted to say?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[SteveVH]

I have never heard of this. Are you quite sure?

James

Yes, I m quite sure. I had a JW employee who went and knocked on doors all the time. She admitted that she was requied to do this, although she said it was because she was doing the Lord’s work. She inadvertantly left her “report” in my car. I picked it up, not knowing what it was, although it did’t take long to figure out. A list of addreses, dates and notes by each address with the result of the visit. It was accompanied by a map. My house was on it with a large X drawn throught it. I have not been visited since.

I asked a friend who had converted to the CC about this and was filled in. I’m not cetain if one is required to do this for their entire life or if it is a set time period, like the Mormon Missionaries. Nevertheless, those that are expected to be out knocking on doors had better show documentation. This is an extremely controlling organizaton.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t have a problem with the few I have had here. The first time it was two women, one with a newborn child in a stroller. It was about 87 degrees outside, and they were wearing pantyhose with their dresses… shoes that were not made for walking on sidewalks all day. The stroller did not have a canopy on it, it was the kind you would use for indoor settings, or short jaunts. Not for being outside all day in heat. I saw one child all alone in the car they parked on the corner across from my house with the windows down. He could have been anywhere from 5 to 7 years old. Sitting in the car with open windows while they covered our block.
They asked me if I wanted to hear about the truth.
I couldn’t believe they were asking me that after what I saw in front of me.

 

[T_More]

Yes, I m quite sure. I had a JW employee who went and knocked on doors all the time. She admitted that she was requied to do this, although she said it was because she was doing the Lord’s work. She inadvertantly left her “report” in my car. I picked it up, not knowing what it was, although it did’t take long to figure out. A list of addreses, dates and notes by each address with the result of the visit. It was accompanied by a map. My house was on it with a large X drawn throught it. I have not been visited since.

I asked a friend who had converted to the CC about this and was filled in. I’m not cetain if one is required to do this for their entire life or if it is a set time period, like the Mormon Missionaries. Nevertheless, those that are expected to be out knocking on doors had better show documentation. This is an extremely controlling organizaton.

Steve, yes they are extremely controlling, but they won’t disfellowship (their version of excommunication, except it includes shunning) someone for not being regular in their door to door ministry. The call this ministry “field service”. Someone will get “counseling” for not being regular in their field service, which used to be a minimum of 10 hours per month to be considered a “publisher”, but not DFed. They will be considered “inactive”, which for a lot of their members is enough for them to steer clear of assosciating with them. Everything you describe about the report you saw sounds spot on. For JW’s, their door to door ministry is the ultimate form of worship of God. Some will become “pioneers”, of which there are different levels, where one commits to a certain number of hours that far exceed what a run of the mill “publisher” would do in a month. This can range anywhere from 30 hours to 100+ per month, with no monetary compensation from the WTBS whatsoever.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I can’t say for those who converted to the JW faith, but I can speak of some cradle JW’s. I find them to be a very intellectually based people, it’s almost surprising that they have not committed a form of idolatry with their excessive reliance on reason. Cradle JW’s will never understand certain mysteries of the Faith which were revealed to us at the Council of Nicea, and which we repeat every Sunday both Catholic and Orthodox. I feel that with most of them all you can do is pray, and to let God’s Light shine through you. That is the only true witness, words are meaningless when it comes to individuals who will debate you over a single sentence and a refusal to let go of their various misconceptions.

Intellectually based people that believe it is okay to have organ transplant yet only random fractions of blood?

You must be joking.

 

[adelore]

JW’s are required to go door to door, they are called “Publishers” and yes they do have to keep track of hours, address, ect.

I had studied with them for 7 years…and then when the one lady I studied with brought a friend with her and really tried to put the pressure on me to join the kingdom hall, not to mention I was told that since my husband refused to study, (although he didn’t prevent me from studing, nor did he interupt ever.) that I would have to leave my husband, because if I became a JW, I would be unequeally yoked by being married to him. That ended our studing! It had been a friendly study until towards the end…then I just couldn’t take it anymore. We use to share what each other believed…then they got pushy. Way to pushy!

After her another lady came, who did admit that she had to go door to door, because it was required of them. They need to put in a certain amount of hours a month to maintain their “Publisher” status. Their kids can’t be in any sport, can’t go do dances, and can’t do a list of things.

It is very much a Controlled Religious Org. They believe what the Watch Tower Says **Over **the Bible. They don’t think for themselves and they will never research anything…if it goes against the Watch Tower.

Many of them are indeed wonderful people, just lead into a cult…and they don’t like the word Christian…don’t refer to them as that, they will correct you.

 

[T_More]

I don’t know how many jws you know but having spent 18 months of my life “studying” with them, I found very few intellectuals among them at all. An intellectual will research continually to get to the root of a thought or idea. Every jw I knew was barely high school educated, if that, and only one I knew had a college degree which was earned long before he became a jw.
They are discouraged , especially the young ones, from furthering their educations because it is seen as a waste of time. Armageddon is any minute now, you see.
Any jw with even a smattering of the intellectual in him/her, will not long remain a jw.

+1, catsrus. I mean this with all the kindness I can muster, but as a group, they are just about the most unintellectual sects you can come across today.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, yes they are extremely controlling, but they won’t disfellowship (their version of excommunication, except it includes shunning) someone for not being regular in their door to door ministry. The call this ministry “field service”. Someone will get “counseling” for not being regular in their field service, which used to be a minimum of 10 hours per month to be considered a “publisher”, but not DFed. They will be considered “inactive”, which for a lot of their members is enough for them to steer clear of assosciating with them. Everything you describe about the report you saw sounds spot on. For JW’s, their door to door ministry is the ultimate form of worship of God. Some will become “pioneers”, of which there are different levels, where one commits to a certain number of hours that far exceed what a run of the mill “publisher” would do in a month. This can range anywhere from 30 hours to 100+ per month, with no monetary compensation from the WTBS whatsoever.

As you are an ex-JW, I humbly defer to your explanation. Thanks for the clarification. I would say however, that in addition to the required reporting of one’s evanglelizing activities, that peer preasure is a very strong, undocumented force that further surrounds and binds one’s life. When my JW employee discovered that her records were missing she came to me in a basic panic, asking if I had found them. I found that very enlightening, and very sad. I do my best to evangelize and have led several into the Catholic Church. I think it would be pridefull to give some kind of report on who I had talked to regarding our Church. So one must wonder as to the motives behind a religious organization that would require its members to wear out their shoes getting converts and requiring documentation from its members as proof of their efforts. Would not “I saw a lot of people today” be sufficient? Are they afraid their members will lie to them about doing God’s work?

This is exactly why this organizaton is referred to often as a cult. People are conditioned to a particular life style. The preasures applied to keep them in this life style are burried deep within the psyche, always living under the threat of ultimately being shunned if you don’t play ball; with losing, really, life as they know it; mom, dad, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, friends and acquaintences. These poor people need our prayers more than anything. I have never come close to converting a witness.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Every religion practices some form of shunning, no matter how they pretty it up.

 

[SteveVH]

Every religion practices some form of shunning, no matter how they pretty it up.

Not true. I have known many people who have stopped coming to Mass or left the Church entirely. I have never known a single person that treats them any differently. And when they return, they are welcomed back with open arms. Sorry, but your statement is just not true, at least in the Catholic Church I know.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Not true. I have known many people who have stopped coming to Mass or left the Church entirely. I have never known a single person that treats them any differently. And when they return, they are welcomed back with open arms. Sorry, but your statement is just not true, at least in the Catholic Church I know.

Just search around you. You will find even here at CAF experiences of lapsed catholics and ones that never realized they were not “catholic enough” all day long if you want to see the entire picture and not just your own personal experience in the church.

 

[SteveVH]

Just search around you. You will find even here at CAF experiences of lapsed catholics and ones that never realized they were not “catholic enough” all day long if you want to see the entire picture and not just your own personal experience in the church.

Are you saying that we do not have an obligation to correct errors spoken about our faith, even among Catholic posters?

If one “never realized they were not ‘catholic enough.’” I’m not sure why they would be upset. Nor do I really understand your point at all. If you are trying to say that there are lapsed Catholics on this forum, of course there are and God bless them for being here. But I don’t hear any of them saying that they were shunned by the Catholic community. If you know of any posts that say this I would be interested in seeing them.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Are you saying that we do not have an obligation to correct errors spoken about our faith, even among Catholic posters?

If one “never realized they were not ‘catholic enough.’” I’m not sure why they would be upset. Nor do I really understand your point at all. If you are trying to say that there are lapsed Catholics on this forum, of course there are and God bless them for being here. But I don’t hear any of them saying that they were shunned by the Catholic community. If you know of any posts that say this I would be interested in seeing them.

Have you visited the liturgy and sacraments forum at all?
Have you noted the number of posters that are former catholics here?

 

[SteveVH]

Have you visited the liturgy and sacraments forum at all?
Have you noted the number of posters that are former catholics here?

Again, I think I’m missing your point. Yes, there are many former Catholics on CAF in general. So what? Have any of them been shunned by the Catholic community?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Again, I think I’m missing your point. Yes, there are many former Catholics on CAF in general. So what? Have any of them been shunned by the Catholic community?

Steve,

You are too far in the forest to see the trees right in front of you IMHO.
But, in any event- I still wish you the best in this. If only it opens up some deeper understanding of what you believe and why you do.

I think it will.

Good for you to open yourself up like this. You are brave, and I admire that.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

You are too far in the forest to see the trees right in front of you IMHO.
But, in any event- I still wish you the best in this. If only it opens up some deeper understanding of what you believe and why you do.

I think it will.

Good for you to open yourself up like this. You are brave, and I admire that.

So I guess the answer is no.

Peace

 

[StrawberryJam]

So I guess the answer is no.

Peace

I object to that. We do not agree.

Is burning on the stake a form of shunning? Maybe that is so far in the past it no longer “counts”?

 

[SteveVH]

I object to that. We do not agree.

Is burning on the stake a form of shunning? Maybe that is so far in the past it no longer “counts”?

Didn’t mean to offend you. Its ok with me if we don’t agree.

Yes, I would say that burning on a stake would probably qualify. Maybe I should give the JW’s a second look. Whaddya think?