Evangelizing the Atheists

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Veritas6

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Hello everyone, what do you make of these claims of a “rationally honest” atheist? I am not agreeing with his arguments but it might put some things in perspective? It seems to be a great challenge evangelizing to these people. What do you think?:

"You cannot choose to believe something that seems to be nonsense to you if you are a rational person, a point made by Richard Dawkins when refuting Pascal’s Wager in The God Delusion. Instead you are compelled to believe things that seem true and to disbelieve things that seem false. The only way you could have the ability to choose a belief is if your rationality is lacking in some area, so this kind of challenge is just a way of detecting mentally ill people… If the claims appear implausible to a non-believer, then he/she will be unable to believe them without being irrational, because it is impossible to choose to believe something while being rational: you are compelled to believe that which seems true and disbelieve that which does not seem true…

Christians could reply that you are not being asked just to believe - you can test Christianity - however this demands a special investment of time and resources that other claims of equal or greater probability may not receive. This also rewards irrationality and punishes rationality…

I have known Christians to say, when asked why people should believe their claims, ‘Because Jesus died for your sins,’ or ‘Because your immortal soul is at risk.’ Both of these indicate that the speaker really does want special treatment for Christianity’s claims. He/she expects me to disregard my estimate of the very low probability of the claim being true, and therefore the very low estimate of the probability that anything being said about Jesus dying for my ‘sins’ or my ‘soul’ matters, and go straight to the issue of what the claims are about…

Similarly, why should I deserve to be punished for not understanding that complexity needs a designer, for failing to realize that the mere existence of reality demands a creator, or for my inability to understand that the claim that a man rose from the dead is very reasonable and that a few men claiming it happened is good evidence? This would be unfair. It would be just as fair to send people to heaven or hell based on their ability to understand quantum mechanics." (bold mine)

https://web.archive.org/web/20120310023154/http://www.paul-almond.com/RewardForBelief.htm
 
In my reply, I think basic philosophical principles of establishing God’s existence (by the Five Ways for example) should be first. Shouldn’t we not expect a non-believer to understand the how of Christianity, without first a proper, rational understanding of say an Unmoved Mover? The greater challenge lies in showing this Unmoved Mover is personal and that He established a Universal Church by sending Himself in form of man to save us from our ancestral disobedience.
 
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Remember that atheists aren’t some monolithic hive-mind.
You need to know the individual’s story before communication can happen 🙂
 
Several decades ago, atheists would argue for the sufficiency of Reason alone, whereas Christians had to defend Faith. Today Christians often have to defend Reason itself.

For atheists who still believe in Reason, you can’t argue that an atheist should go against Reason. But you can try to get them to consider that some of their personal positions night be simply a product of contemporary culture, rather than a conscious, thought out Logical process. That might start them to consciously think of how Christianity can be logically refuted.

Reason works in our favor. Where we lose is the unconsciously accepted, taken for granted assumptions, that are practically swallowed with the water supply.
 
I was watching Patrick Madrid earlier, and I like the way he does it, by asking questions. Obviously, the response is going to be different depending on which individual, but most of the time people call themselves atheists, I found that they’re usually actually agnostic.
 
I’ve only ever known two kinds of atheists: one kind couldn’t care less what I do or think, but are happily living their free-wheeling meaningless lives uninterested in any discussions, these I call true atheists. The second kind is preachy, always looking to argue this and that, trying to convince me that God doesn’t exist, these I call people who don’t want God to exist, so constantly looking for someone to somehow validate their belief choice. Either way, never not even once have I seen an atheist convert and I wouldn’t even try.
 
The ultimate worry portrayed in these arguments is “I will be damned if I can’t believe or understand certain beliefs which appear to be irrational”. I really get worried for these people, I can’t tell if some are truly honest or are fundamentally scared of wanting to believe the right things. This person already has an irrationally justified idea of Christianity which prevents him from being rational about it. I can’t tell if this is from arrogance or a truly desperate person not being capable of understanding the seemingly “irrational” aspects of the faith.

This objector thinks investigation is fundamentally irrational because of the “special investment” these subjective “low probability” claims are. I don’t know what to say to that. Are atheists really expected to believe in the Incarnation before a proper understanding of the existence of God? If you can’t even be open to the possibility of an Unmoved Mover then there isn’t much more to say.

He seems to be: “expected, with minimal evidence, to believe a low probability claim for no good reason, or to risk time and resources on checking a particular low probability claim when there is no obvious justification for it and when doing this would mean giving that claim special treatment. Even if the Christian god is real, rewarding me for belief would mean rewarding me for irrationality and punishing me for disbelief would mean punishing me for rationality.” That is a scary statement.

What would happen to someone who has been raised with a distorted view of Christianity which prevents her from truly accepting some of the difficult beliefs? First, I suppose it takes humility and the gift of faith and of discernment.

Would she be truly willing ultimate separation from God if she has profound difficulties with accepting Christian belief? Wouldn’t the supernatural act of faith hopefully save her? Might God be merciful to this hypothetical person when she dies?

I am most afraid of these people living their lives with a pitiful understanding of Christianity - afraid they will be damned for their unbelief - thus separating themselves from everything religious.
 
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I’d suggest just loving them, praying for them, and setting as good an example as you can.

I don’t like to argue unless I’m getting paid.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I’d suggest just loving them, praying for them, and setting as good an example as you can.
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In addition to loving, praying, setting example, it also helps if we (briefly) let others know what we believe.

That’s not the same as telling them what they need to believe. Christianity needs to be visible and identifiable in the real world they live in. It’s an available option for people like them.
 
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Well, I’d say my beliefs and everyone else’s are highly visible all over this forum, so interested people can find them. I’m not exactly skulking around in the shadows in real life either.

In addition, when an atheist genuinely wants to know what I believe, which has happened once or twice, I tell them.
 
Veritas6 said:
You cannot choose to believe something that seems to be nonsense to you if you are a rational person ,
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I disagree with this premise. While I don’t find Christianity to be rational to me, I disagree that it is irrational to be Christian. First of all because I’ve known too many rational Christians and understand that it is rational to them.

I think we just have different degrees or understanding of rational reasons. I understand what Christians believe and why they believe it. It just doesn’t pass as acceptable reasons to me. To me, it would be irrational to accept Christian claims but I can certainly understand that others disagree.
 
Chistian-ity said:
Forgive my ignorance but what is Jewish agnostic?
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A person who identifies as Jewish but takes the position that the existence of God is unknown or unknowable, in other words they believe that people don’ t know and can’t know for sure whether God exists or not.

There are a lot of Jewish people who are culturally Jewish and may derive their ideas of ethical behavior from Jewish law and custom, but when it comes to believing in God and worshipping God, they are agnostics. I am good friends with a couple of them.
 
commenter said:
But you can try to get them to consider that some of their personal positions night be simply a product of contemporary culture,
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That’s going to get turned around on you real fast. It is super common for atheists to point out that simple geography is the best predictor of what religion you believe, whereas atheism tends to arise despite cultural opposition.
 
JapaneseKappa said:
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commenter:
But you can try to get them to consider that some of their personal positions night be simply a product of contemporary culture,
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That’s going to get turned around on you real fast. It is super common for atheists to point out that simple geography is the best predictor of what religion you believe, whereas atheism tends to arise despite cultural opposition.
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100 years ago, atheism arose despite cultural opposition. Today, it is the dominant culture in sectors such as academia, media, certain others.
 
commenter said:
Today, it is the dominant culture in sectors such as academia, media, certain others.
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Academia is basically the only sector where you could argue that atheism is advocated. But by academia we don’t mean undergrad, we mean people employed in academia. The media isn’t pro-atheist, it is just less pro-religion than it used to be.
Basically: expect the atheist to be completely unconvinced.
 
Veritas6 said:
Christians could reply that you are not being asked just to believe - you can test Christianity
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So to satisfy the atheists demand for a test, you’ll have to be able to supply an objective criteria for test success.
 
I wanted to give information in my avatar as to my history. I was raised in Orthodox Judaism and became agnostic in my late teens early twenties…it was a long process!

According to Judaic law, I’m still Jewish just as once Catholic always Catholic. But I no longer believe in anything supernatural…long story.
Some days I m also atheist, some days not but agnostic always. Hope that helps.
 
Veritas6 said:
What would happen to someone who has been raised with a distorted view of Christianity which prevents her from truly accepting some of the difficult beliefs?
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You don’t even need to be raised with distorted beliefs. It can be incredibly difficult for an outsider to figure out what the authoritative Catholic position is, as Catholics themselves can be misinformed. I have seen serious Catholics on this forum deny Catholic teachings, even when presented with imprimatur/nihil obstat documents that contradicted their position.
 
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