Evangelizing the Jews?

[Esdra]

Hi folks,

recently I ran through the following doctrine:

According to the Reformed-Evangelical Church (in Austria), God goes His own way with the Jews, and thus Jews aren’t or shouldn’t be evangelized. (As they already had the possibility to accept Him as the Messiah!)
Now, I think that this goes also for Presbyterians, as the Reformed-Evangelical and the Presbyterian Church are quite similar in doctrine.

However, Baptists, Mennonites (and other Anabaptists) and especially Pentecostals are very into evangelizing the Jews, even in Israel. They believe (and as far as I know, it even says in the NT; 'though at the moment not sure where) that, if they accept Jesus as the Messiah the End of the World comes. And that we are living at the End of Times.
Also LDS and SDA and I guess as well JWs (to name some “not so orthodox Christians”), are into evangelizing the Jews.

1. What’s the Catholic point on Evangelizing the Jews?
2. And I’d also like to know in contrast other viewpoints of Protestants concerning this topic.

Yours,

 

[Esdra]

No comments on that?

Okay, let’s put a question in:

Does you church/denomination evangelize the Jews?

Mine does not directly, but I know that our sister-churches (Baptists) and especially the Pentecostal Churches do. (Even in Israel!)

 

[Veritas41]

I am a Catholic convert from evangelical Protestantism. The churches I belonged to (Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian) believed that Jews need to be evangelized because Jesus is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament and only Savior of Jews and Gentiles. The Catholic Church teaches that the Church has a special relationship with the Jewish people:

“*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish people. *When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God of the New Covenant, discuss her link with the Jewish People,‘the first to hear the Word of God.’ The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews ‘belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises, to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ’; 'for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 839).

Jews, just like other non-Christians, can be saved (through Christ, even if they don’t know about Him) if they respond to the grace of God they receive and believe and obey whatever truth about God they can know, being ignorant of Christ through no fault of their own,
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–these too may achieve eternal salvation.” (CCC 847)

However, right after that passage, in the next paragraph it says,

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” (CCC 848).

Even though it’s *possible *for non-Christians, including Jews, to be saved without explicit knowledge of Christ (this obviously excludes those who knowingly reject Christ), it’s still necessary to evangelize so people can come to a full knowledge of the truth revealed in Jesus Christ and be able to receive all the means of God’s saving grace through the sacraments.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I can’t think of of any instant since John Paul II where any work has been done in this area with the Jews.

And John Paul II is the one who opened the door back up to communicate with them.

Their Gods Chosen People. There is no where in the Bible where it states God changed His mind.

I also find it difficult to believe anyone is converting them with any success. You would have to show the actual statistics on this. Their religion is taught from day one to them, they remain segregated from all others basically their entire life. They interact on a business level only. Its rare to see them in public schools or being raised among other religions.

They mind there own business, they bother no-one. Why anyone would want to interfer with them baffles me.

 

[kja]

Hi folks,

recently I ran through the following doctrine:

According to the Reformed-Evangelical Church (in Austria), God goes His own way with the Jews, and thus Jews aren’t or shouldn’t be evangelized. (As they already had the possibility to accept Him as the Messiah!)
Now, I think that this goes also for Presbyterians, as the Reformed-Evangelical and the Presbyterian Church are quite similar in doctrine.

However, Baptists, Mennonites (and other Anabaptists) and especially Pentecostals are very into evangelizing the Jews, even in Israel. They believe (and as far as I know, it even says in the NT; 'though at the moment not sure where) that, if they accept Jesus as the Messiah the End of the World comes. And that we are living at the End of Times.
Also LDS and SDA and I guess as well JWs (to name some “not so orthodox Christians”), are into evangelizing the Jews.

1. What’s the Catholic point on Evangelizing the Jews?
2. And I’d also like to know in contrast other viewpoints of Protestants concerning this topic.

Yours,

Hi Esdra
The apostle Peter Acts15:11 says “but we (Jews) believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same mannor as they (gentiles)”

Jews are save through faith in Jesus Christ just like gentiles. Therefore Jews need to hear the gospel just like everyone else. So yes I believe in evangelizing the Jews. Here are some more versus that show Jews are saved through Jesus Christ the same as Gentiles.
Acts 2:38, 3:19&26, 4:12, 20:21, Gal 2:16, 1Pet 1:3
Hope this helps. May God bless you and all on this forum abundantly

Your brother in Christ Kevin

 

[Esdra]

Hi Esdra
The apostle Peter Acts15:11 says “but we (Jews) believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same mannor as they (gentiles)”

Jews are save through faith in Jesus Christ just like gentiles. Therefore Jews need to hear the gospel just like everyone else. So yes I believe in evangelizing the Jews. Here are some more versus that show Jews are saved through Jesus Christ the same as Gentiles.
Acts 2:38, 3:19&26, 4:12, 20:21, Gal 2:16, 1Pet 1:3
Hope this helps. May God bless you and all on this forum abundantly

Your brother in Christ Kevin

Hi Kevin,

thank you for responding.

Lately I’ve started a couple of threads concerning SDA.
Would you mind having a look at them?
Thread 1
Thread 2 and
Thread 3.

Finally there is also another thread going on, started by benidict.

Thank you in advance ,

 

[mdrummer5]

Their Gods Chosen People. There is no where in the Bible where it states God changed His mind.

As a former Jew… I like this statement

Their religion is taught from day one to them, they remain segregated from all others basically their entire life. They interact on a business level only. Its rare to see them in public schools or being raised among other religions.

Also as a former Jew I find this to be a fairly odd and over generalized statement.

Maybe it’s just different where I live but the majority of private schools where I live are Catholic, I can think of three within a 5 mile radius of where I live. Jews typically grow up around all other religions just like everyone else. In fact when I still attended the local Temple we would take field trips to other religious organizations to learn about other religions because we were taught to respect all beliefs which is unfortunately fairly uncommon in my experience.

If it’s rare to see them in public schools it’s only because either a. they’re a minority (likely the case) or b. they don’t let it be known they are Jewish.

For me growing up it was both. Where I grew up if you were a Jew you were going to hell because you refused to accept Jesus Christ. I actually had a girl in high school tell me after finding out I was Jewish “you killed Jesus”. I caused a bit of a scene and walked out of the class I was in. There was another incident after “Schindler’s List” came out when someone thought it’d be cute to put a news article showing some Hasidic Jews and getting their take on the movie on “the Jewish kid’s locker”. That was actually amusing as there were three Jews in my graduating class one was a small kid literally about half my size… that’s who’s locker they thought it was. When I walked through a crowd of bullies to take the article down they apologized profusely when they realized their error.

Ahhh memories… lol anyway the point is Jews are not typically segregated by choice or otherwise at least not in the way you make it sound.

 

[Timothy17]

Hi folks,

recently I ran through the following doctrine:

According to the Reformed-Evangelical Church (in Austria), God goes His own way with the Jews, and thus Jews aren’t or shouldn’t be evangelized.

This is so wrong and false it defies imagination.

Judaism is a false religion just like any other religion. Those who try to split God into being pro-Christian, but also pro-Judaism or entirely tolerant, even accepting of Judaism create in their mind two gods.

Where there is a want of truth there is a want of freedom. “And the Truth shall set you free.” We are taught that truth itself is the enabler and guide of true freedom. Where there is a deficiency of Truth there is, consequently, a deficiency in freedom. False religions disdain Christianity because Christianity threatens their established status quo. It would disenfranchise the blind guides and wolves that enjoy an unjustified sway and hold over their adherents in usurpation of God’s authority. In God’s eyes the rabbi has as much authority over the Jews as an economist has authority over Christians. Insomuch as what he says is or might be right and true is where his authority begins and ends. It’s the truth, and not man or the office or position, that has authority, and this is open to everyone. That doesn’t mean we should replace our priests with economists, however, because God Himself has established the priesthood.

There is no pact between the Light and the darkness of the abyss. You would give no credit to anyone saying pagans or Buddhists have a special, seperate relationship with God that Christians should not, therefore, interfere with.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[mdrummer5]

Judaism is a false religion just like any other religion. Those who try to split God into being pro-Christian, but also pro-Judaism or entirely tolerant, even accepting of Judaism create in their mind two gods.

Wow… I can’t even express how ignorant this is. I get that you may not agree with Judaism but to call it a false religion when JESUS WAS A JEW isn’t just ignorant, it’s stupid.

Edited to add: I understand this is a Catholic forum but can we not show respect for other beliefs as well? Especially when the one in question is the root of our own???

 

[catsrus]

Without the Jews, where would we be?
They are our forbearers in a religious sense and therefore, indispensible. Our faith is built on their faith. We believe what they believe up to the end of the Book of Malachi.
They do fine without us but we can not do without them.
That said, I also do not think we should be evangelizing the Jews. What Jew in today’s world does not know of Jesus Christ and the history of Christianity? I am not aware of tribes of Jews lost in the jungles or populating an undiscovered island who have had no access to modern history.
If they decide to convert (Edith Stein?) that is their heartfelt decision and, if not, that too is their decision. Conversion is between God and man.

 

[Contarini]

Hi folks,

recently I ran through the following doctrine:

According to the Reformed-Evangelical Church (in Austria), God goes His own way with the Jews, and thus Jews aren’t or shouldn’t be evangelized. (As they already had the possibility to accept Him as the Messiah!)
Now, I think that this goes also for Presbyterians, as the Reformed-Evangelical and the Presbyterian Church are quite similar in doctrine.

It goes for “mainline” Presbyterians, not conservative/traditional ones.

Edwin

 

[Timothy17]

Wow… I can’t even express how ignorant this is. I get that you may not agree with Judaism but to call it a false religion when JESUS WAS A JEW isn’t just ignorant, it’s stupid.

Edited to add: I understand this is a Catholic forum but can we not show respect for other beliefs as well? Especially when the one in question is the root of our own???

I am a Canadian, but that doesn’t mean I think same-sex marriage is okay or abortion is okay. I vehemently disagree with these evil practices, even if most of my countrymen sanction it or believe in it. My disagreement does not - and nothing can - change the fact of my being a Canadian.

Generally when we levy the charge of ignorance or stupidity we at least demonstrate it with an example ; however, Jesus being Jewish does nothing to change my argument. Jesus established the Church, and He did so with great Sacrifice. When Jesus walked the earth Judaism meant Temple and High Priest, sacrifices and feasts, in accordance with God’s Law and Will. All of this, nonetheless, merely foreshadowed, prefigured, and pointed to Him. Today, Jesus would not find Temple or High Priest, nor the appointed sacrifices and their feasts. Why ? Because the Judaism of today had to change and become a diferent religion to deal with the loss of their institutions and their national homeland. You can read your Old Testament until you are blue in the face, you will not find God establishing the rabbi and the synagogue. You will not find Him establishing schools to study and critique the doctrines of the Talmud. He established the priest and the sacrifices, both of which are missing from modern Judaism. It is a different religion, albeit a successor and adaption of the original ; nonetheless, even if it were re-established with full force and ceremony as it was in the time of Christ, it would still only prefigure and foreshadow Christ - quite a useless experiment seeing as He has already come.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[Timothy17]

Without the Jews, where would we be?
They are our forbearers in a religious sense and therefore, indispensible. Our faith is built on their faith. We believe what they believe up to the end of the [prophet] Malachi.

Who says,

*"I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands;

for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same,

my name has been glorified among the gentiles,

and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the gentiles."*

We are the legitimate successors and continuation, not by any merit of our own, but by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[mdrummer5]

I am a Canadian, but that doesn’t mean I think same-sex marriage is okay or abortion is okay. I vehemently disagree with these evil practices, even if most of my countrymen sanction it or believe in it. My disagreement does not - and nothing can - change the fact of my being a Canadian.

Generally when we levy the charge of ignorance or stupidity we at least demonstrate it with an example ; however, Jesus being Jewish does nothing to change my argument. Jesus established the Church, and He did so with great Sacrifice. When Jesus walked the earth Judaism meant Temple and High Priest, sacrifices and feasts, in accordance with God’s Law and Will. All of this, nonetheless, merely foreshadowed, prefigured, and pointed to Him. Today, Jesus would not find Temple or High Priest, nor the appointed sacrifices and their feasts. Why ? Because the Judaism of today had to change and become a diferent religion to deal with the loss of their institutions and their national homeland. You can read your Old Testament until you are blue in the face, you will not find God establishing the rabbi and the synagogue. You will not find Him establishing schools to study and critique the doctrines of the Talmud. He established the priest and the sacrifices, both of which are missing from modern Judaism. It is a different religion, albeit a successor and adaption of the original ; nonetheless, even if it were re-established with full force and ceremony as it was in the time of Christ, it would still only prefigure and foreshadow Christ - quite a useless experiment seeing as He has already come.

Pax Christi,
Tim

Have Catholic practices stayed the same since it’s origins?

 

[Timothy17]

Have Catholic practices stayed the same since it’s origins?

Jewish spirituality and religious practices developed with continuity up and until the time of Jesus Christ. Their own Holy Book, the Tenach, contains the prophecies of Malachi I quoted above, for example. Jesus Himself blessed and sanctioned many of the practices of Jews during His Ministry on earth, and affirmed many of the concurrent beliefs or doctrines (ressurection of the dead, for example) that justified them, even though these can scarcely be found in the Old Testament, much less the Books and laws of Moses ; nonetheless, Jesus never sanctioned a single error, and there were many of them (certain Sabbatical and other man-made laws, diguising as but utterly contrary to God’s own, come to mind). So many errors, in fact, He Himself said that he would otherwise dispute with them [the Pharisees] about them, but His primary mission was to do His Father’s Will and establish the Way, the Life, and the Truth, which He did, and does still do through His Mystical Body, the Church. He warned His disciples to be constantly on guard against such erroneous teachings and doctrines, saying, “Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.”

Protestantism likewise has many spiritual goods and Truths contained in germ within its realm ; nonetheless, this does not make it any less false a religion, nor would anyone say Catholics should not attempt to evangelize and convert Protestants on account of those germs of Truth, nor go even further and preach that Protestantism is in a special, seperate relationship with God and so Catholics cannot in any way interfere with them, for example. We most certainly should evangelize them and must always rebuke error, lest we give error credence and become hypocrites.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[mdrummer5]

Jewish spirituality and religious practices developed with continuity up and until the time of Jesus Christ. Their own Holy Book, the Tenach, contains the prophecies of Malachi I quoted above, for example. Jesus Himself blessed and sanctioned many of the practices of Jews during His Ministry on earth, and affirmed many of the concurrent beliefs or doctrines (ressurection of the dead, for example) that justified them, even though these can scarcely be found in the Old Testament, much less the Books and laws of Moses ; nonetheless, Jesus never sanctioned a single error, and there were many of them (certain Sabbatical and other man-made laws, diguising as but utterly contrary to God’s own, come to mind). So many errors, in fact, He Himself said that he would otherwise dispute with them [the Pharisees] about them, but His primary mission was to do His Father’s Will and establish the Way, the Life, and the Truth, which He did, and does still do through His Mystical Body, the Church. He warned His disciples to be constantly on guard against such erroneous teachings and doctrines, saying, “Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.”

Protestantism likewise has many spiritual goods and Truths contained in germ within its realm ; nonetheless, this does not make it any less false a religion, nor would anyone say Catholics should not attempt to evangelize and convert Protestants on account of those germs of Truth, nor go even further and preach that Protestantism is in a special, seperate relationship with God and so Catholics cannot in any way interfere with them, for example. We most certainly should evangelize them and must always rebuke error, lest we give error credence and become hypocrites.

Pax Christi,
Tim

That’s a very well thought out, detailed explanation. But it doesn’t answer the question.

 

[Esdra]

It goes for “mainline” Presbyterians, not conservative/traditional ones.

Edwin

The Reformed-Evangelical Church in Austria is most definitely a “mainline presbyterian church”

 

[Esdra]

Jewish spirituality and religious practices developed with continuity up and until the time of Jesus Christ. Their own Holy Book, the Tenach, contains the prophecies of Malachi I quoted above, for example. Jesus Himself blessed and sanctioned many of the practices of Jews during His Ministry on earth, and affirmed many of the concurrent beliefs or doctrines (ressurection of the dead, for example) that justified them, even though these can scarcely be found in the Old Testament, much less the Books and laws of Moses ; nonetheless, Jesus never sanctioned a single error, and there were many of them (certain Sabbatical and other man-made laws, diguising as but utterly contrary to God’s own, come to mind). So many errors, in fact, He Himself said that he would otherwise dispute with them [the Pharisees] about them, but His primary mission was to do His Father’s Will and establish the Way, the Life, and the Truth, which He did, and does still do through His Mystical Body, the Church. He warned His disciples to be constantly on guard against such erroneous teachings and doctrines, saying, “Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.”

Protestantism likewise has many spiritual goods and Truths contained in germ within its realm ; nonetheless, this does not make it any less false a religion, nor would anyone say Catholics should not attempt to evangelize and convert Protestants on account of those germs of Truth, nor go even further and preach that Protestantism is in a special, seperate relationship with God and so Catholics cannot in any way interfere with them, for example. We most certainly should evangelize them and must always rebuke error, lest we give error credence and become hypocrites.

Pax Christi,
Tim

I also think that you are quite intolerant when saying that Judaism is a false religion.
I still think that the Jews are God’s chosen people (as it nowhere says the opposite, neither in the New nor in the Old Testament) and that he goes His way with them.
Nevertheless, I believe that they should hear about Christ. And it’s great if they enthrust their lives to Jesus. Baptists i.e. teach that if all Jews are converted to Christianity (as they ARE God’s chosen people and God doesn’t want to lose anyone who’s His) - the End of the World will come.
On the other hand, however, you are right, Judaism 2000 years ago and now are not really the same since the Temple had been destroyed by the Romans and never rebuild

Another point: I’ve always thought Protestants don’t need to be Evangelized (as most of them know the Scriptures FAR better than the average Catholic) but CATECHISED?
At least this was told me here at CAF.

in Christ,

 

[Timothy17]

That’s a very well thought out, detailed explanation. But it doesn’t answer the question.

Your question, however, was irrelevant, as my explanation showed (viz., that God’s religion does develop, especially doctrinally, and subsequently in practice, over time).

The purpose of that religion was to be the vehicle and forerunner of the new. Everything contained in it pointed or alluded to Christ.

Consider King David’s passionate pleas to his God :

*"Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy. And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity.

Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.

Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.

Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels.

Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and strengthen me with a perfect spirit.

I will teach the unjust thy ways: and the wicked shall be converted to thee.

Deliver me from blood, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall extol thy justice.

O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise.

For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted.

A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up.

Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar." *

Behold. King David was Catholic.

I think this would suffice to constitute for any Catholic Priest a Baptism of desire.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[Timothy17]

I also think that you are quite intolerant when saying that Judaism is a false religion.
I still think that the Jews are God’s chosen people

They are elect according to the flesh. That has nothing to do with their religion. A Jew could be an outright Buddhist, and would still be a Jew in God’s eyes, and his children also, though his religion, I believe, traces his ethnicity matrilineally (through the mother).

The Jews are our elder brothers, as foreshadowed in the Old Testament and the Book of Genesis. St. Paul, for instance, makes use of this parallel clearly when he insists Christians are the elect by Grace, according to the promise, comparing the children of the free-born woman (Sarah) to the children of the bond-woman (Hagar), and contrasting the Jerusalem above (the New and Eternal Covenant) to the Jerusalem on earth (the Old Covenant). We are the children of God by adoption, by Gracem and not by any kind of merit.

The Church Fathers do teach, however, that the Jews have an important part to play in God’s plan for salvation ; that is, in salvation history, especially at the end of times. Beyond that, they are pretty vague.

Pax Christi,
Tim