Evangelizing Traditional Catholicism

[dostoyevskyfan]

I have a few perhaps naive questions. What is the quickest way to get someone in communion with the mystical body of Christ our Church? It’s my understanding that RCIA can sometimes take up to one year…and yet the disciples were able to instantly baptize people in the name of the Lord? Would a prospective Catholic suffer perdition if they were to die during the RCIA process?

Also, is it recommended to baptize infants yourself, the moment they come out of the womb just in case they don’t make it to the point in life where baptism usually occurs?

Sentence deleted for lack of charity.
Thomas Casey
Moderator

Thank you.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I have a few perhaps naive questions. What is the quickest way to get someone in communion with the mystical body of Christ our Church? It’s my understanding that RCIA can sometimes take up to one year…and yet the disciples were able to instantly baptize people in the name of the Lord? Would a prospective Catholic suffer perdition if they were to die during the RCIA process?

Also, is it recommended to baptize infants yourself, the moment they come out of the womb just in case they don’t make it to the point in life where baptism usually occurs?

How many here have successfully evangelized someone who now attends the tridentine mass?

Thank you.

If a prospective Catholic were to die during the RCIA Process they would not necessarily be outside the Church. Catholic theologians have described three conditions for Baptism.

Sacramental Baptism is necessary as soon as possible. All Catholic theologians agree - even with Newborns - From memory I believe it is within 8 days - someone can correct me if I am wrong.

On prospective converts - like the Good Thief on the cross (St Dismas) converted on the cross. He wasnt baptised.

Catholic Martyrs some of whom were converted by witnessing the martyrdom of other Christians so they converted and were slain too.

These situations are known as Baptism by Desire and Baptism by Blood. They do not preclude the necessity of Sacramental Baptism - but allow for the Will of GOD for their Salvation.

So if you want to save your soul and love GOD with your whole heart soul and mind and cannot wait to be Baptised - chances are that you have already acheived Baptism by Desire already. Of course - since this is judged by GOD alone , no one can say for sure.

But if your heart be desirous - it seems you are on your way.

So dont fear GOD - love him. And congratulations.

Pax

 

[puzzleannie]

I have a few perhaps naive questions. What is the quickest way to get someone in communion with the mystical body of Christ our Church? It’s my understanding that RCIA can sometimes take up to one year…and yet the disciples were able to instantly baptize people in the name of the Lord?

The disciples usually did not baptize newcomers after a moment’s acquaintance. It is well documented that in the early Church there was a formation process, and by the 3rd century this could take years. In Acts and Paul’s letters when someone is baptized quickly, such as Cornelius, the jailer and his family, the Ethiopian offical for instance, they were either already conversant with scripture, had a miraculous encounter, or both. Paul himself says after his conversion he sought out, as directed, those who could instruct him in his new faith and prepare him for baptism, and after that spent 3 years in Arabia, presumably in prayer and study, before beginning his ministry.

those I work with in RCIA seldom have had a miraculous encounter with God and have many more questions than can be answered in a few minutes. The process is intended to take a minimum of one year from the time the individual is accepted as a catechumen, from Lent to Easter of the following year, followed by a minimum of 7 weeks of Mystagogy, and this is all preceded by an indefinite period of inquiry and pre-evangelization. Someone already conversant with Scripture, as some examples in the NT, obviously need less time.

Would a prospective Catholic suffer perdition if they were to die during the RCIA process?

no a catechumen is considered to have already asked for baptism and indicated his desire for it while he is preparing, and is considered to have been saved through baptism of desire.

Also, is it recommended to baptize infants yourself, the moment they come out of the womb just in case they don’t make it to the point in life where baptism usually occurs?

no, it is illicit unless the individual is in danger of death. It is recommended that one obey the Church founded by Jesus Christ and endowed by Him with the authority to confer the sacraments which are His gift.

How many here have successfully evangelized someone who now attends the tridentine mass?

Thank you.

everyone of my acquaintance who attends the only TLM available here is already firmly solidly Catholic.

 

[JustaServant]

How many here have successfully evangelized someone who now attends the tridentine mass?

Thank you.

When I saw this I (and the title) I just had to log in.

Are you trying to be funny with that last question? Seriously.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I think my original post was unclear and I could see how it could be viewed as uncharitable. What I meant to say is…has anyone been able to bring a non-catholic into the catholic faith, specifically into “traditional catholicism”? This is what I meant by evangelization.

I attend the tridentine mass and would like to figure out how others have successfully brought non-catholic friends to this mass and evangelized them.

Thanks, sorry for the confusion.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Also…

These situations are known as Baptism by Desire and Baptism by Blood. They do not preclude the necessity of Sacramental Baptism - but allow for the Will of GOD for their Salvation.

Pax

I’ve read seen some very convincing arguments from other traditional catholics to reject both “baptism by desire” and “baptism by blood”. Some claim these are not infallibly taught by the church. This is the reason I asked about someone in RCIA dying outside the church. It seems they say that the thief in Luke was under the old law, and that now a water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

They will point to quotations such as this one (and many others) to back up their claims:

It firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none who are outside the
Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and
schismatics, can partake of eternal life, but they will go into eternal
fire . . . unless before the end of life they will have been joined to it
(the Church); and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body has such force
that only for those who remain in it are the sacraments of the Church
profitable for salvation, and fastings, alms and other works of piety and
exercises of the Christian soldiery bring forth eternal rewards (only)
for them. "No one, howsoever much almsgiving he has done, even if he sheds
his blood for Christ, can be saved, unless he remains in the bosom and
unity of the Catholic Church.

 

[rosary_kat]

It firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none who are outside the
Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and
schismatics, can partake of eternal life, but they will go into eternal
fire . . . unless before the end of life they will have been joined to it
(the Church); and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body has such force
that only for those who remain in it are the sacraments of the Church
profitable for salvation, and fastings, alms and other works of piety and
exercises of the Christian soldiery bring forth eternal rewards (only)
for them. "No one, howsoever much almsgiving he has done, even if he sheds
his blood for Christ, can be saved, unless he remains in the bosom and
unity of the Catholic Church.

Precisely where does this quote come from?

 

[Third_Day]

=dostoyevskyfan;6998140]I have a few perhaps naive questions. What is the quickest way to get someone in communion with the mystical body of Christ our Church? It’s my understanding that RCIA can sometimes take up to one year…and yet the disciples were able to instantly baptize people in the name of the Lord? Would a prospective Catholic suffer perdition if they were to die during the RCIA process?

The early Christians did not become full fledged members the minute they believed. Clearly they were baptized so that they could come into the New Covenant but as the Church continued to grow it became necessary to slowly instruct those that converted to Christianity’

1 Cor 3:2 “ Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now for you are still of the flesh.”

The word “ Catechumen” comes the Greek katecheo.

Gal. 6: 6: "Let him that is instructed (katecheo) in the word, share all good things with his instructor”
Acts, 18: 25 “He had been instructed ( katecheo) in the Way of the Lord”
Luke 1:4 “ so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed ( katecheo) “

katēkhoumenos “being instructed,” form of katēkhein ( catechize) Latin “ catechumena,

Hebrews 6 “ Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment”

Instruction in the faith continued into the early centuries.

Justin Martyr AD 140-150 First Apology
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.”

Tertullian Ad 200 The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity
The young catechumens, Revocatus and his fellow-servant, also was a married matron, having a father and mother and two brothers, one of whom, like herself, was a catechumen, and a son an infant at the breast. She herself was about twenty-two years of age.”

Augustine AD 391 On the Profit of Beliving
“And I had decided to be a Catechumen in the Church, unto which I had been delivered by my parents, until such time as I should either find what I wished, or should persuade myself that it needed not to be sought. Therefore had there been one who could teach me, he would find me at a very critical moment most fervently disposed and very apt to learn. If you see that you too have been long affected in this way, therefore, and with a like care for thy soul, and if now you seem to yourself to have been tossed to and fro enough, and wish to put an end to labors of this kind, follow the pathway of Catholic teaching, which hath flowed down from Christ Himself through the Apostles even unto us, and will hereafter flow down to posterity.”

 

[CradleCath]

I think my original post was unclear and I could see how it could be viewed as uncharitable. What I meant to say is…has anyone been able to bring a non-catholic into the catholic faith, specifically into “traditional catholicism”? This is what I meant by evangelization.

I attend the tridentine mass and would like to figure out how others have successfully brought non-catholic friends to this mass and evangelized them.

Thanks, sorry for the confusion.

These are just my thoughts, but I believe it will be very difficult to bring people into traditional Catholicism until those in charge of the RCIA, the parish priests & the Bishops, will follow Pope Benedict’s wishes that both the TLM. & the Novus Ordo are to “reside” within the Church.

Can you see an RCIA class that will teach both forms of the Mass to the students? Can you see an RCIA teacher bringing the two Missals to classes & promoting them as equals? Teaching devotion to the Saints, COTT, the importance of the Marian doctrines & Novena’s
ewtn.com/Devotionals/novena/immaculate.htm
etc., etc.? I can’t.

I am slowly, ever so slowly trying to “convert” my children, who were raised in the post-Vat. II Church to traditional Catholicism. I’m having much better luck with my Grandchildren, who seem very much involved in this Church that is steeped in antiquity & piety. They seem to NEED this.

If anyone can come up with ideas about the title of this thread, I’d sure like to hear them.

 

[Stylites]

Also…

I’ve read seen some very convincing arguments from other traditional catholics to reject both “baptism by desire” and “baptism by blood”. Some claim these are not infallibly taught by the church. This is the reason I asked about someone in RCIA dying outside the church. It seems they say that the thief in Luke was under the old law, and that now a water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

It is always best to follow the offical Church teachings rather than the Scriptural personal interpretations of the laity. Only the Church has the authority to interpret Public Revelation.

 

[CradleCath]

Also…

I’ve read seen some very convincing arguments from other traditional catholics to reject both “baptism by desire” and “baptism by blood”. Some claim these are not infallibly taught by the church. This is the reason I asked about someone in RCIA dying outside the church. It seems they say that the thief in Luke was under the old law, and that now a water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

They will point to quotations such as this one (and many others) to back up their claims:

It firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none who are outside the
Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and
schismatics, can partake of eternal life, but they will go into eternal
fire . . . unless before the end of life they will have been joined to it
(the Church); and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body has such force
that only for those who remain in it are the sacraments of the Church
profitable for salvation, and fastings, alms and other works of piety and
exercises of the Christian soldiery bring forth eternal rewards (only)
for them. "No one, howsoever much almsgiving he has done, even if he sheds
his blood for Christ, can be saved, unless he remains in the bosom and
unity of the Catholic Church.

However, we are bound to see Baptism through the eyes of the Catholic Church which teaches:

The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis),** the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis).** However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

 

[Milesius]

According to the Fathers catechumens can be saved through baptism of desire so no they would not necessarily be damned if they died during the their preparation for baptism.