"Even If"...The Pope Knows What He is Doing

[Antonius_Lupus]

NEVER call yourself a fool for coming to your family with questions and worries. That’s what we’re here for --to be your family and to help as much as we can.

You didn’t waste time, because you had the answers you needed to help you resolve something that was really troubling you. . .and hopefully others who might have lurked and not had enough resolve as you to ‘speak right out’ were helped too.

Well thank you for being my family. I know I’m not the most easy little brother to deal wtih at times.

 

[FAB]

It would appear then that I am simply a young fool who has misunderstood EVERYTHING. Never before have I felt so alone. It would appear my entire understanding of this whole issue has been but one misunderstanding, falsehood, and lie after another. I can find no-one who has the same perspective as my own, only further confirming that I have been led astray…

Just my luck.

Dear Antonius,
You came to a very traditional site which spends mush of it’s time defending the Extraordianry form of the mass.

Not to worry. What our pope is doing is misunderstood my many of turning back Vatican II. That is really not the case. Being a wise man he is working to give a place that all Catholics that they can all worship under the authority of Rome.
For those who yern for the EF of the mass, he has given them to oportunity to do so without restriction. This does not mean that the OF is goining away by any means, as proof, look at the lastest revsion of the Roman Missal.
Both Benedict and John Paul before him know that all of the treasures of the Second Vatican Council have yet to be realized and we are still progressing in in implamentation.
You are not being lead astray.
Just remember the story of the mustard seed. The tree from it houses many differnts kinds of birds. Despite differences thary all find shelter. since this is the Kingdom of God can no less be said for Christ’s Church.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Dear Antonius,
You came to a very traditional site which spends mush of it’s time defending the Extraordianry form of the mass.

Not to worry. What our pope is doing is misunderstood my many of turning back Vatican II. That is really not the case. Being a wise man he is working to give a place that all Catholics that they can all worship under the authority of Rome.
For those who yern for the EF of the mass, he has given them to oportunity to do so without restriction. This does not mean that the OF is goining away by any means, as proof, look at the lastest revsion of the Roman Missal.
Both Benedict and John Paul before him know that all of the treasures of the Second Vatican Council have yet to be realized and we are still progressing in in implamentation.
You are not being lead astray.
Just remember the story of the mustard seed. The tree from it houses many differnts kinds of birds. Despite differences thary all find shelter. since this is the Kingdom of God can no less be said for Christ’s Church.

There is so much wisdom in your words. I am grateful that I am a member of a family like the Catholic Church which has people like you to help me stay on the narrow road.

 

[Monica4316]

Antonius,

I’m a big fan of the EF, mainly because there are so many abuses in the current OF that make it less reverent than what it should be or what the Council perhaps intended. To me I guess the question is always what is more helpful in worshipping God, rather than what is based on history, etc, especially as I see the EF being based in history but maybe our research differs… history is complicated after all.

I think Pope Benedict himself talked about the problems with the OF, - the main problem seemingly that there’s a lack of “organic development” from previous rites. The EF was formed through “organic development”, but the OF - not as much. (the Council introduced the changes all of a sudden, the change happened suddenly not gradually). Maybe the Pope wants the two forms to coexist so that the OF can take in elements of the EF and thus be more in accordance to what came right before it, ie: more “organic” development - from now on. Also, this can help to reform the OF to purify it of the abuses. What do you think? I think that MAYBE that is what is being done, but I can’t say cause of course we don’t know what the Pope thinks. I think it’s best to just trust!

It might be that:

• either that there’s more of a concern with making more “continuity” between the EF and the OF (like I described above)… maybe continuity is more important than bringing the liturgy back to the earliest forms? After all, we know there were some abuses in the history of the liturgy even in the early Church… and they were refined, and we got the EF as a result. All the little details in it came to protect the liturgy from abuse and to keep it reverent. If we go back earlier, we get a liturgy that is perhaps not as refined and not as safeguarded from mistakes and abuses… for example, - I read that once in Church history, the faithful received Communion in their hands, but this was changed because of abuses. That’s why in the EF people receive kneeling with their hands under the white fabric (normally) and only on the tongue, with the paten used.
• OR, it could be that it’s difficult to understand history and the reality is that the OF is not a return to the early Roman liturgy. That might be hard for you, but I’m not saying that’s the case, only another possibility. I don’t know history well enough. But for example, using the example about Communion, - I also read in another place that even though Christians have once received Communion in their hands, their hands were actually covered with a cloth and they didn’t touch the Host, and it was ensured that there are no crumbs. So here we have two different accounts of Communion. Maybe only one is accurate, maybe both. But we can see from that how there are many accounts of history and we don’t really KNOW for certain which one is true.

I think it’s best to trust in what the Pope is doing, because - it seems this is causing you great anxiety but I think our faith should be simpler, more joyful, more trusting… I know this only because this is my problem also, I struggle with worries and I overthink everything, lol. Sometimes it helps to just trust. If we have both liturgies side by side, that will probably only help the OF. And if one day we’ll only have the EF, - well then we’ll just have a very reverent liturgy, and maybe it would be influenced by the OF as well.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

Antonius, I’m sorry that this is causing you so much anguish it’s interesting that I’ve felt similarly however for the opposite reason, - I found it difficult to be Catholic at first because of the OF. lol but I think trusting in the Church more helps to have more peace. Think of all the horrible things that are going on today… lack of catechesis, many Catholics disagreeing with Catholic teachings, the Masses that focus on “creativity” rather than reverence for God… the ignorance of the wonderful Catholic devotions out there… In my experience, the EF parishes that I’ve been to - are very different. Maybe the Pope wants to increase them, in order to help reform the OF and the rest of Catholicism in the West. Try to see this as being for the good. don’t focus so much on whether your research has been right, or wrong, - IF it was wrong, that only shows our human weakness let that draw you closer to God, who is our strength, rather than further away. I read a quote by St Padre Pio that said that humility is to recognize our abjection, but a deeper humility is to love it. That is very difficult. But if you feel like you’ve been wrong, - let that simply humble you, and help in your sanctification. I’m not saying that you’re wrong btw. I don’t know. But don’t let this draw you from the Church.

Remember that VII never “invalidated” the Latin Mass, - even if it needed a few little changes, it didn’t need SOOO many changes that now we have “rock Masses” and all the rest. Maybe it needed more responses from the people, things like that. In VII documents, it even talks about still using Latin, Gregorian chant, etc. But see how too much was changed after the Council. Maybe it could be that the the EF is actually closer to the Mass that VII intended, than the OF? that would be ironic, but who knows it could be. So maybe that is why it should be here now. In addition, - like I said the EF was never abrogated. It’s still a valid form of the Mass, and always was.

Maybe with time, the little changes the VII wanted would be introduced into the EF and there, we’ll have the “true VII” Mass. Or, the OF would be changed to be more reverent and more like the EF, also giving the same result: what the Council intended. It could be that with all the changes, we simply went too far… **and if we make a mistake along the road, the right thing to do is to return to the place before making the mistake, and go again from there? ** I think that’s what CS Lewis once said

Keep in mind that the “traditionalists” are also trying to help the Church… they are not the enemies. The real enemy is secularism, liberalism, and relativism. (and the people who follow that, well hopefully they will come into the Church also).

Um, part of the answer is that the OF as very often experienced in the last 40 years was NOT what Vatican II intended. Read the documents. Vatican II specifically called for Gregorian Chant to retain pride of place and for the PEOPLE (you and me) to be able to say, IN LATIN, those parts of the Mass which were for the people’s response. There was NOTHING in the documents about CITH, removing the altar rails, celebrating facing the people, everybody standing round the altar, and above all, nothing about "now everything has to be In English and we can add, or subtract, or paraphrase to suit the congregation and/or the priest’s ideas of what is MEANINGFUL.’

nobody is trying to ‘take away the OF’. The so-called ‘hybrid’ is simply the restoration of what the OF was originally meant to be: Mass with parts in the vernacular, with Gregorian chant in pride of place, music which is sacred in character, and active participation by the people in the vernacular for where the People’s parts were to be in the vernacular, and IN LATIN where they were to be in Latin: say the Red and do the Black, no ‘additions’ or ‘subtractions’.

I agree.

 

[Monica4316]

Just a little while ago I gazed at a painting and saw something I didn’t see before:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/PerovVG_PervHristianKievGRM.jpg

The painting depicts a small group of newly baptized Russian Christians celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the middle of the night. It is clearly the period of Russian history when they were just being converted to Christianity. Their priest is a disheveled hieromonk and their cantors are two young men with pieces of paper for hymnals. The altar is a rock under a tree and the only sacramentals present is the vessel and an old icon. It is hardly the prime example of a Byzantine Divine Liturgy! And yet:

The men singing are filled with awe and reverence. The priest is on his knees in a posture of supplicatory prayer. The other laity are kneeling and genuflecting with such love and peace that I am envious of them.

Clearly liturgical beauty and ancientness wasn’t what was drawing these people…it was the Faith itself, and how much greater it was than the old Slavic paganism of their past.

that is true… try to think of it this way: for some, the EF is what brings them nearer to the faith and helps them to worship God better. I know that for me, I can focus on God better in the EF than in the OF. Maybe for you, it’s the other way around. But my point is that - if there were no EF, some Catholics would have left the Church. I didn’t know how to be Catholic before I discovered the EF because that’s my spirituality. So maybe we need both now, and we’ll see what happens in the future

It is much akin to what many of you said. I’ve been such a fool! I’m so ashamed.

Because the fact is: if I truly loved Rome, I would follow her unquestioningly. If I truly desired to be a “good Roman” then I would accept that whatever Rome says is legitimate is indeed legitimate. Being Roman simply means whatever Rome says that it means.

Why indeed did I choose Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy??? I wanted to be Greek Orthodox…to express my faith in a static and stable manner. To worship God with all the splendor of the Greek Orthodox tradition. To know that my faith is the same as it was in centuries past. Isn’t that what I’m again trying to attain now?

At the end of the day, I chose Catholicism because the Fathers said that it was the standard of Orthodoxy. I chose it because I wanted the Truth; not just some liturgical beauty. Hell, if I wanted liturgical beauty I could have just as easily been a Muslim, a Jew, or a Pagan.

I question the Pope. I question his decisions. I fear for the future that he is outlaying. Am I not just like Luther? Or Calvin? Or St. Photios? All these doubted Rome as I do now, and yet in retrospect they had no reason for fear.

Someone told me that, since I say that I trust the Pope, then what’s the problem? Trust him and be at peace! I wanted to punch that person, because I knew he/she was right.

I’m such a fool, and I don’t know what to do after having seen myself fall so far from a proper understanding of the liturgy. How could I have been so blind to reduce the liturgy to the same ossification that the Orthodox have so sadly reduced it. I just don’t know what to believe anymore after everything I have suffered of late.

Liturgy, ultimately, is the manner by which God comes to meet His People. It manifests itself in numerous ways and expressions, and all of them are equally dignified if lawfully recognized by the Church.

I allowed myself to be tied up in knots by all my research into liturgical history, that I failed to see that I have nothing to fear with the revival of the EF.

I am sorry to have wasted all of y’all’s time.

No don’t apologize or beat yourself up over this. We all struggle with something. Lol I post on this forum over and over asking probably ridiculous questions and delving into canon law to the point that I get confused - because of course, I don’t know canon law. I suppose all my questions are actually pretty annoying, and I make myself go crazy over them too. Soo… you’re not the only one just let all this humble you! be joyful!

God bless

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Monica, you never cease to amaze me. Thank you!