Ever get a "tired of liberal Church" M.Angelica moment?

[AltarMan]

Both extremes in the Church suck.

In their minds they couldn’t be more different, yet in reality they can be quite similiar. Both can be quite heterodox and welcoming of liturgical abuses and delicts:

Heterodox Group Alpha. Often referred to as “liberals”, “Spirit of Vatican II’ers.” Fond of referring to themselves as “progressives.” Common traits: Appreciate porous ceramic chalices and liturgical dancing. Mantra: “the spirit of Vatican II” ** Idealistic spritual advisor:** Roger Cardinal Mahony.

Heterodox Group Beta Often referred to as “right-wing whack-jobs” and sometimes as “preeners.” Fond of referring to themselves as “traditionalists.” Common traits: they know better than the Church what is best; more Catholic than the Pope. Mantra: It’s not abusive if it’s “better” than what the Church actually directs. Idealistic spritual advisor: Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz.

 

[Toni]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’m sorry, What is an American Catholic church?

It is what some call the Church of America that choses to make it’s own rules and not the Roman Catholic Church. Basically something the liberals have worked on for years.

 

[AltarMan]

Toni:

It is what some call the Church of America that choses to make it’s own rules and not the Roman Catholic Church. Basically something the liberals have worked on for years.

What’s the “Roman Catholic Church?” Are you talking about the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church?

 

[CARose]

Roman Catholic Church merely refers to the Catholic Church, Latin Rite, faithful to the magisterium of the Pontiff in Rome.

CARose

 

[Toni]

AltarMan:

What’s the “Roman Catholic Church?” Are you talking about the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church?

Stand corrected. When we were growing up my mother always referred to the Church as the Roman Catholic Church not the Church of the Latin Rite.

 

[Ace86]

Toni:

Stand corrected. When we were growing up my mother always referred to the Church as the Roman Catholic Church not the Church of the Latin Rite.

The adjective Roman was originally a derogative term that Protestants attached during the Reformation. Catholics have nowadays accepted that term with humility; i.e. Roman refers to Rome, the Vatican.

 

[m134e5]

What bugs me is when people have the opportunities for orthodox and powerful preaching, inspiring and reverent music, architecture that makes people feel like they have “stepped out of this world and into heaven” (my evangelical aunt said this about Eastern Orthodox Churches, and traditional Catholic Churches- and said that is something she feels the evangelicals lack), yet they choose politically correct homilies, saccharine music, and architecture that makes people forget they are in church at all. They are like children who are taken to all sorts of restaurants- yet they always get chicken fingers.

It bugs me when orthodox parishes, who are clearly doing an outstanding job at promoting and keeping people in the Faith, are criticized- labelled as “pre-Vatican II” or “too conservative”- and are shunned by the rest of the Catholic community- the heterodox parishes. The heterodox parishes, on the other hand, are losing members- and the ones they do have seem to want the Church to be little more than a food pantry and goodwill store.

It bugs me when you look at orthodox Catholic families (which often takes awhile to do- because they are often big families), and see a look of pure joy and peace in their faces–yet you look at heterodox Catholic families who look no different from anybody else, who can’t control their kids, who get irritated at people who are on fire for the Faith, and who think orthodox catholics are irresponsible or crazy for having so many kids- when their six or seven kids are better behaved then their one or two.

 

[AltarMan]

Ace86:

The adjective Roman was originally a derogative term that Protestants attached during the Reformation. Catholics have nowadays accepted that term with humility; i.e. Roman refers to Rome, the Vatican.

Not all of us have…

 

[AltarMan]

m134e5:

What bugs me is when people have the opportunities for orthodox and powerful preaching, inspiring and reverent music, architecture that makes people feel like they have “stepped out of this world and into heaven” (my evangelical aunt said this about Eastern Orthodox Churches, and traditional Catholic Churches- and said that is something she feels the evangelicals lack), yet they choose politically correct homilies, saccharine music, and architecture that makes people forget they are in church at all. They are like children who are taken to all sorts of restaurants- yet they always get chicken fingers.

It bugs me when orthodox parishes, who are clearly doing an outstanding job at promoting and keeping people in the Faith, are criticized- labelled as “pre-Vatican II” or “too conservative”- and are shunned by the rest of the Catholic community- the heterodox parishes. The heterodox parishes, on the other hand, are losing members- and the ones they do have seem to want the Church to be little more than a food pantry and goodwill store.

It bugs me when you look at orthodox Catholic families (which often takes awhile to do- because they are often big families), and see a look of pure joy and peace in their faces–yet you look at heterodox Catholic families who look no different from anybody else, who can’t control their kids, who get irritated at people who are on fire for the Faith, and who think orthodox catholics are irresponsible or crazy for having so many kids- when their six or seven kids are better behaved then their one or two.

You are suggesting that so-called “conservative” parishes are orthodox. That’s not always the case by any means. Further, you attempt to stereotype what YOU consider to be “heterodox.” Sorry, no sale.

“On fire for the faith” dosen’t mean disregarding what the Church actually directs and instead whining for the “need” to kneel while receiving Holy Communion as just one example.

 

[AltarMan]

Toni:

Stand corrected. When we were growing up my mother always referred to the Church as the Roman Catholic Church not the Church of the Latin Rite.

The “Roman Catholic Church” is one of 20+ churches that comprise the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’m sorry, What is an American Catholic church?

Likely, the church that has bought in lock, stock and barrel to the heresy of Americanism, condemned by Pope Leo XIII of blessed memory. The idea that Catholics are no different than other Americans and looks with suspicion on those who try to stand against the mores of the popular culture.

In other words, your basic “caring, sharing faith community.”

 

[Toni]

OK Now that we have hijacked this whole thread about American Catholicism. What makes you want to say you are tired of the liberal Church?

 

[twiztedseraph]

AltarMan:

You are suggesting that so-called “conservative” parishes are orthodox. That’s not always the case by any means. Further, you attempt to stereotype what YOU consider to be “heterodox.” Sorry, no sale.

“On fire for the faith” dosen’t mean disregarding what the Church actually directs and instead whining for the “need” to kneel while receiving Holy Communion as just one example.

Its funny how the Desert Fathers saw what Satan looked like, burned, ugly and no knees. Infact, the dear Card Ratzinger once said, if you can’t kneel to God you are sick…He explores the notion of kneeling for the Eucharist in his “Spirit of the Liturgy”.

The need to kneel for communion is one of example. Showing others the true reverence with which one should receive one’s creator, in a world where people pop Jesus into their mouth as if he was but a cookie…Maybe one day, when the schools start enforcing pre-Communion confession, when Johnny “I’m a Pagan” isn’t allowed into the communion line, when drops of the Precious blood don’t stain the carpet because of carelessness, mayhaps then we kneelers will no longer have to kneel…But even then, it would be a devotion safeguarded by the Apostolic See.

The Vatican safeguards the right to kneel, communion may not be denied to one who kneels licitly.

Finally, what is your idea of “orthodox”? Did you realise sir, that Vatican II actually states that Latin be safeguarded, as the language of the Church? I love my brothers and sisters in the Church, left, right, middle all of you However the middle guys annoy me slightly more than the lefties. Atleast with the lefties you know what they’re gonna say. The middle guys however have this kind of work it out as you go feel. They’re neither hot nor cold…so to speak. A middle guy will one minute teach orthodox doctrine, and then the next be playing hard down rock music in the sacrifice of the Mass. Despite the fact that the treatise of how we pray is how we believe, and that rock music is pretty darn secular…

Maybe you shouldn’t so openly criticize people’s faith which is in the end the opinion of a mere acolyte. Or atleast term it so its not so offensive to anyone who reads. Especially since you’re stereotyping what YOU think is orthodox.

 

[IanS]

We bought a new house last spring and started going to a parish not far from it. After listening to a 30 minute homily on why women should be priests, then seeing the priest blow through the second part of the Mass and not even add water to the wine or bow during the consecration, we decided it would be worth the extra drive to go elsewhere.

 

[Toni]

twiztedseraph:

Finally, what is your idea of “orthodox”?

Someone who loves the Church for her teachings follows the Holy Father and follows Sacred Tradition. Receives the Sacraments reverently, continues to grow in their faith. Never wanting to be a cafeteria Catholic.

 

[twiztedseraph]

Toni:

Someone who loves the Church for her teachings follows the Holy Father and follows Sacred Tradition. Receives the Sacraments reverently, continues to grow in their faith. Never wanting to be a cafeteria Catholic.

I dare say youre correct. However, just add “constant teaching of the Magisterium” to the Holy Father, but then again, you had Sacred Tradition down

 

[Toni]

twiztedseraph:

I dare say youre correct. However, just add “constant teaching of the Magisterium” to the Holy Father, but then again, you had Sacred Tradition down

Two points

 

[m134e5]

AltarMan:

You are suggesting that so-called “conservative” parishes are orthodox. That’s not always the case by any means. Further, you attempt to stereotype what YOU consider to be “heterodox.” Sorry, no sale.

“On fire for the faith” dosen’t mean disregarding what the Church actually directs and instead whining for the “need” to kneel while receiving Holy Communion as just one example.

No, not all “conservative” parishes are orthodox. I know of plenty that aren’t. There is a mandate from Jesus (in the Bible) to help the poor and needy which many “conservatives” seem to thumb their noses at. Many “conservatives” seem to like the rules of the liturgy so much they act like the priest should be stoned to death for mispronouncing a word, or if it isn’t perfectly done every time.

I do not think people should be allowed to stand to receive communion, because in our world of pride, people could stand to learn some humility (all of us). That being said, I am not bothered when someone does or does not kneel for communion. If they are kneeling- or not kneeling- to be rebellious, that is wrong. I prefer to kneel, because I am being more reverent that way (not that everybody is- it is a personal thing for me). I am blessed to have that option at my parish, as it has communion rails, and so I kneel. I do not fault anyone for choosing not to- it is irritating when they do it or don’t do it to be rebellious though. It is optional, as recent Church documents have stated. If I go to a parish that does not have communion rails, I do not kneel (unless I can do it without it causing a scene- which is rare).

What I meant, in my last post, by heterodox parishes was those parishes that don’t challenge people to grow in their faith- in all areas- that are too afraid of ‘rocking the boat’ to take a stand on anything other than taking care of the poor (which generally everybody believes is a good thing to do- even if they disagree about how it should be done). There are also those who are afraid of angering parishioners who say ‘let the poor care for themselves’. As it has been said before- the line to the cafeteria forms from both the left and the right.

Bl. Teresa of Calcutta was most certainly “on fire for the faith”- yet she stood for communion, and received in the hand (where the practice was allowed).

I wasn’t implying that the only people who love the faith kneel to receive communion, or do other traditional practices. I have witnessed that parishes that tend to do these things have more people in them who are passionate about the faith- and who share it with others by discussing the teachings of the Church, caring for the physical needs of those in the community, discussing Catholic spirituality, meeting together periodically to grow in friendship with one another, and challenging people to grow in their faith- wherever they may be spiritually.

The heterodox parishes I have seen do little more evangelization than sending volunteers to food pantries (that’s a great thing to do- but the poor will die whether you feed them or not- where they go when they die is more important). These parishes (again, ones I have seen) have discussions on the faith that don’t go very deep spiritually, and end up being little more than sessions where people go to talk about their problems. That does nothing to help those who are further along in their walk of faith then that. They do not discuss spirituality when it gets tough- they assume that no one can handle it, or wants to hear it- those who hunger for that are left hungry. The homilies and the literature from the literature rack don’t challenge people to grow closer to God- to reform their lives- and the evangelical churches who do challenge people to do these things are snatching Catholics from those churches left and right. There is no talk of sin. The music is the same politically correct music that was used in the '70’s (although the worst ones are long gone).

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Heterodox Group Beta Often referred to as “right-wing whack-jobs” and sometimes as “preeners.” Fond of referring to themselves as “traditionalists.” Common traits: they know better than the Church what is best; more Catholic than the Pope. Mantra: It’s not abusive if it’s “better” than what the Church actually directs. Idealistic spritual advisor: Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz.

Whoa…hold on a second. Maybe I’m misinterpreting you, but Bishop Bruskewitz is NOT in the “traditionalist” falsely so-called (radtrad) camp. The good Bishop of Lincoln, NE is an excellent example of what kind of bishop the Church in America needs-someone that is not afraid of preaching (AND enforcing) orthodoxy.

Actually, Nebraska is well blessed with orthodox bishops. Archbishop Curtiss of Omaha is a great bishop and as far as I know bishop Dendinger of Grand Island is pretty good too.

As to being tired of liberals, yes I certainly am. They trashed the liturgy, they ignore the Vatican and they build horrid monstrosities that are supposed to be churches. They preach about “social justice” and ignore personal and community piety. “Progressive” clergy and religious persons teach heterodoxy and spread confusion and lies to the flock. Some (the feminists) try to womanize God and HIS Church, etc. etc. It just makes a person sick.

I think it was a good thing to excommunicate people like the SSPX, but I really think it would have been better for the Church if we’d started the excommunicating with all the heterodox of the liberal slant. I think if we had made a good effort to purge all the heretics that came out of the '60’s and '70’s, we probably wouldn’t have had such a problem with the “ultratraditionalists”. We might have been able to ride the wave out with them if we’d just shown some backbone with the “progressives” and “spirit of VII” folks.

Another thing I don’t like is the differences between the official Latin text of the Ordo Missae and what we read out of the little missalettes.

Why can’t we say “I believe…” for the Creed? It says “Credo…” and that means “I believe”. This “We believe…” may very well be true, but that is not how it is written.

Also, “Et cum spiritu tuo” is not “and also with you”. How hard is it to say, “and with your spirit”? Or, for “Orate, fratres…” it is NOT “Pray brothers and sisters”, it is “Pray bretheren…”

I’m not anywhere near fluent in Latin, but with my very limited abilities I could easily see what was wrong. If we never hear or read the Latin parts, we’d probably never really know that the translations are wrong, or at least not very faithful to what was actually written.

 

[mary_bobo]

Interesting discussion. As a recent revert I a struggling with some of what I see. I was raised pre-Vatican II, and the new liturgy does not seem as reverant to me. The Mass seems more like services in a protestant church and it is strange to me. But I love the church, I never disbelieved her teachings even when I was away and I just wish things were a little more traditional than they seem to be. It seems there is different interpretation of the church’s rules and regs, for want of a better word, depending on where you go, traditional church, “progressive” church, etc. I am not knocking it—I just don’t understand it.