Ever lasting punishment?

[hurst]

melbourne_guy:

im not sure you people are understanding what im trying to say. Be realistic , -if i put an athiest in my oven for a thousand years then asked him “now do you love and believe in god ?” his answer wont be “Nah i still dont, i dont care how much you burn me im not going to love jesus or believe in him” his answer will be more like “ok ok since i have seen the punishment you can inflict i now understand that jesus is god and i love him”

How do you know this? Have you ever encountered a spiteful person? Someone who hates you so much, that they will turn everything against you?

Have you never punished someone and obtained their plea, only to hear them revert to their spitefulness as soon as they were released? “Please stop! I promise to never do it again! … [release] … Hahaha! I won’t stop! I’ll do it as much as I please!”

The fact is, their will is evil, but it still seeks its own natural good. Wishing to be free from pain does not cause them to wish to submit their will to God, for they hold on to that will in order to seek to be free from pain. Thus, their willful seeking to avoid pain leads them to eternal pain, and their willful seeking to gain pleasure causes them to lose eternal bliss.

On the other hand, those who give their will to God, do not seek to be free from pain, but embrace it, as Christ embraced the Cross. Not for its own sake, but because it is the Will of God.

Matthew 16:25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

So you see the difference. One who loves God is willing to suffer the pains of hell, and they thus accept purgatory for the love of God. But those who hate God are unwilling to suffer those pains for love, and so it never benefits them; their “penance” lasts forever.

melbourne_guy:

it just makes me angry when people say “those in hell want to be there” The only people who want to be in hell are satanists, and i think even devil worshippers would get sick of hell after a day or two

Again, I agree they don’t want the pain. But they chose to be there apart from that consideration. And if that consideration was held out to them, they either didn’t believe in hell or in the pains thereof, or else they believed they could overcome it by their own power, or they believed it would be more painful to endure a God who forgives and requires us to forgive and love those whom we can’t stand. Isn’t it true that some people can’t stand others and will refuse to enter the same room?

Isn’t it true that some people are so hateful that after committing heinous crimes and being sentenced to death and torture, they still refuse to be sorry? Just look at the two who were crucified with Christ. One repented, but the other didn’t. So you see, physical torture does not constrain the will to change its perspective. The will is not dependent on the body.

hurst

 

[hurst]

AnAtheist:

That is neither fair nor logical. If there was an afterlife, where one really experiences pain, a merciful god would not torment anyone for eternity.

So, you admit then that you have heard of the concept of “mercy”?

Would you welcome mercy into your life at this moment? If so, would you share this mercy with others?

Or do you reject it at this moment? If so, what would make you change your mind to welcome mercy into your life later? Or ever? Would it take being tormented? Or wouldn’t that make you despise it as if it were coercing you to change your mind to give mercy to others you already decided to hate?

God will not coerce our will. Any punishments or pain in eternity, whether hell or purgatory, are not given to coerce our will. They are one of the consequences of our choices freely made during life. This is one aspect to how God judges! He puts us into eternity with whatever we made of ourselves during life, and we reap the consequences. It is like a mother bird pushing its young out of the nest, expecting them to fly. Who could ever explain to those young birds what it would be like? If our work survives, we are rewarded. We thus would do well to ask God to help us prepare for the effects of eternity.

AnAtheist:

A just god would punish people for their evil, but he would also give them the opportunity for resocialisation.

Your god is obviously not eternal, but an image of society’s justice system. The God I believe in is eternal and changes not. He gives us chance after chance in this life of time to prepare for the next one of eternity. The math of finite elements is not quite the same as the math of infinite elements. When you have no boundaries, a single substance fills it without constraint. Even so, once in eternity, you cannot change your decision, because it fills your eternity without bounds immediately. An explosion cannot change itself, for once in motion it is left to the consequential projectories.

In time, we are bounded moment by moment, and can change our mind many times. But we learn as we grow older that doing so is inconvenient and wasteful. We seek a constant approach to all we do, one that is consistent and fruitful. We are given time to prepare for our moment of exploding into eternity, and we ought to be very careful and deliberate in what we decide to do once and for all, forever. We are like a seed. Let us ask the gardener to nourish us and plant us where he thinks it best. We are like a child before going out to the world. Let us love our Father and rely on His help, and follow His example.

AnAtheist:

A god that punishes someome for not believing utter nonsense, and not “force” that nonsense into everyone in the first place (like making it so clear, that nobody can resist), is not good, just nor merciful.

I didn’t quite follow you here. Are you saying God is bad for not forcing us to be good enough to avoid punishment?

hurst

 

[hurst]

AnAtheist:

BTW - to say, do what I want, or I’ll punish you forever, is called blackmail, not free choice.

Agreed, but the choice is independent of the punishment and so the punishment cannot possibly cause one to repent of their decision. Therefore, the more accurate statement is: do what you want, but only I can reward you forever with fullness of life, and do not choose evil because I will be stepping on it. It’s a free choice, but it should be a no-brainer. Only those who want to exalt their power of choosing will have a problem with that. But really, all we can do is choose between two options. We were not endowed with the power of being God, but only of choosing Him.

We are given to know that God forces us to exist; that He forces us to make a choice between life or death; and yet that He does not force us as to which of these we should choose. Which of these we choose is totally up to us, and we are cappable of making it independently of any pain. Martyrs suffered yet kept true to their decision. Evil people enjoyed worldly riches and pleasures yet chose against eternal life. Other evil people suffered poverty and ignorance, but still chose against life. Others still were well-off and yet decided to believe and live in justice. There are all sorts of combinations of these. No one is constrained in his will, which is able to act independently of bodily pains.

This is not blackmail, it is justice. Even you would be furious if you heard about the government granting funds to an organization to exist, only to find out this organization chose to use that money to fund terrorism against the same government. Consider the 9/11 terrorists who used the freedom and trust extended to hijack planes and attack the very same country. So, while our country allows free actions, it also seeks to punish evil ones freely chosen. Is it blackmail, then for the government to say, if you don’t follow these laws, you will be punished? Likewise, you imply that what “god” “wants” is selfish and bad, and paint it to be even more evil that there is a threat of punishment for not doing it. This is called a strawman argument, where you set up a lame representation of something that can easily be knocked down (and deserves to be knocked down). Let us avoid such deceptions and hindrances, and prefer to seek clearer understanding.

hurst

 

[hurst]

mlchance:

God doesn’t torment anyone. God doesn’t punish anyone.

God allows people to be tormented.

God does punish, not in the sense of coercing the will, but in the sense of justice.

hurst

 

[hurst]

AnAtheist:

I will simplify my argument:

Christian doctrine says 2+2=5.

That is because One is added to the 4 in eternity

Seriously, our actions in this plane of reality are recast into the reality of eternity. What doesn’t make sense to a seed can only be learned by it going outside of itself, giving of itself, and to do this requires it to no longer be a kernel, but to break out. If it refuses to leave its own confines, then it will remain as a damned soul, and cast away. Any suffering it experiences will only make it more hardened and convinced not to leave its shell. It refuses to believe that 2+2=5 because it doesn’t see the whole equation, and refuses to allow another reality to contribute to such an equation. It sticks with 2+2=4, leaving out any other consideration. But those with faith, give of themselves without being in control of the outside, and find themselves grow to a much larger number than 5, and the equation is more like 2+2x=5y (God+me[2] + double my effort[2x] = 5 times the yield[5y]). For some, it is 30y, 60y, or even 100y.

hurst

 

[mlchance]

AnAtheist:

I will simplify my argument:

Christian doctrine says 2+2=5.

No, Christian doctrine doesn’t say that, just like Christian doctrine doesn’t say the other things you’ve said it says. That is the very essence of a strawman: To distort or otherwise misrepresent the other side’s actual position and to then attack that distortion.

As soon as you can honestly statement what the Christian doctrine of Hell is, then you can begin to attempt to honestly demonstrate its errors.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[barsapp]

melbourne_guy:

im not sure you people are understanding what im trying to say. Be realistic , -if i put an athiest in my oven for a thousand years then asked him “now do you love and believe in god ?” his answer wont be “Nah i still dont, i dont care how much you burn me im not going to love jesus or believe in him” his answer will be more like “ok ok since i have seen the punishment you can inflict i now understand that jesus is god and i love him”
it just makes me angry when people say “those in hell want to be there” The only people who want to be in hell are satanists, and i think even devil worshippers would get sick of hell after a day or two

Luke 16, 30-31: “…’if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.”

 

[AnAtheist]

mlchance:

As soon as you can honestly statement what the Christian doctrine of Hell is, then you can begin to attempt to honestly demonstrate its errors.

That is a bit difficult, because when you ask three Christians you get four answers.
But I see a clear contradiction between:
In Hell are ONLY people who WANT to be there.
One goes to Hell, if one does not obey a certain set of rules. (What set of rules exactly depends on the type of Christian you ask too, but that’s irrelevant for the argument.)

E.g. Someone does not believe in God and does not want to go to Hell. Where will that person end up according to Christian doctrine?

To argue, both actions of that someone are equivalent, is twisting the meaning of the used words. Wanting a thing A or not is not the same as doing or not another thing B.

 

[thistle]

AnAtheist:

That is a bit difficult, because when you ask three Christians you get four answers.
But I see a clear contradiction between:
In Hell are ONLY people who WANT to be there.
One goes to Hell, if one does not obey a certain set of rules. (What set of rules exactly depends on the type of Christian you ask too, but that’s irrelevant for the argument.)

E.g. Someone does not believe in God and does not want to go to Hell. Where will that person end up according to Christian doctrine?

To argue, both actions of that someone are equivalent, is twisting the meaning of the used words. Wanting a thing A or not is not the same as doing or not another thing B.

A person goes to Hell because he deliberately separates himself from God’s love by breaking one or more of the ten Commandments. These are not “rules” set by people. They were set by God. I can’t imagine any Christian (even if non-Catholic Christian) lives by any other “rules” because Jesus told us to obey those Commandments.
As for non-Christians not going to Hell, that is possible. If someone lives a life of goodness as Christ would want but that person has never had the opportunity to know about Jesus they would have what is called a baptism of desire and would be saved.
Atheists on the other hand know about God and have the opportunity to come to believe in him but reject that God. Atheists have the chance to save themselves but do not take it so they will go to Hell.

 

[AnAtheist]

thistle:

Atheists on the other hand know about God and have the opportunity to come to believe in him but reject that God. Atheists have the chance to save themselves but do not take it so they will go to Hell.

You cannot reject something, that does not exist in your view. Atheists don’t think, “Ok, here is God, Iet’s reject Him.”, we think “there is no God.” Period.
Let’s assume, we are wrong about God and Christians are right.
Then our non-belief brings us to Hell (another thing that does not exist in our view). But this is not a path we have chosen ourselves. In our world that path does not exist, thus we cannot deliberately choose it. We would go to Hell, because that is the will of someone else, namely God.

Do you, as a Christian, deliberately choose not to go to Walhalla?
So considering you would end up there, was that still your choice or rather Odin’s choice?

 

[thistle]

AnAtheist:

You cannot reject something, that does not exist in your view. Atheists don’t think, “Ok, here is God, Iet’s reject Him.”, we think “there is no God.” Period.
Let’s assume, we are wrong about God and Christians are right.
Then our non-belief brings us to Hell (another thing that does not exist in our view). But this is not a path we have chosen ourselves. In our world that path does not exist, thus we cannot deliberately choose it. We would go to Hell, because that is the will of someone else, namely God.

Do you, as a Christian, deliberately choose not to go to Walhalla?
So considering you would end up there, was that still your choice or rather Odin’s choice?

You choose not to believe.

 

[AnAtheist]

thistle:

You choose not to believe.

If you say so. I suppose you can read my mind.

I choose not to believe in God as much as I choose to believe in gravity.

 

[John_Paul_III]

AnAtheist:

You cannot reject something, that does not exist in your view. Atheists don’t think, “Ok, here is God, Iet’s reject Him.”, we think “there is no God.” Period.
Let’s assume, we are wrong about God and Christians are right.
Then our non-belief brings us to Hell (another thing that does not exist in our view). But this is not a path we have chosen ourselves. In our world that path does not exist, thus we cannot deliberately choose it. We would go to Hell, because that is the will of someone else, namely God.

Do you, as a Christian, deliberately choose not to go to Walhalla?
So considering you would end up there, was that still your choice or rather Odin’s choice?

Somewhere deep inside your person, you have hope. You just being on a Catholic website chatting it up with us Catholics is a nice starting point. At some point in your life you will fall down on your knees in front of God, at some point maybe through a sudden death of a loved one, you might have a prayer to a God, that seems impossible or too distant. Somewhere deep inside your person is hope. We live in a world that is very complicated, we fight wars, we kill each other, we have terrorism, we have racial tendacencies that develop into a taught racism, and even here in the US we kill 1000 to 2000 babies a day in what we call abortion, through all of this though we have hope, we still have love, we have charity.

In a world that is so evil, where does the good come from?

In a world that is loving, and charitable, where does the evil come from?

 

[ncgolf]

AnAtheist:

If you say so. I suppose you can read my mind.

I choose not to believe in God as much as I choose to believe in gravity.

What ??? One does not choose to believe in gravity. It just exists and we recoginize it for what it is and gave it a name. If we ignore it then death ensues, i.e. gravity won’t affect me … just watch me leap from this building. Babies learn this very quickly. It is not so much choosing but recognizing what is so plainly obvious. There are effects to not recognizing or ignoring gravity as there are effects to not recognizing or ignoring God.

 

[mlchance]

AnAtheist:

In Hell are ONLY people who WANT to be there.
One goes to Hell, if one does not obey a certain set of rules.

You seem terribly obsessed about not having to obey “a certain set of rules.” That’s the common denominator among all people who object to Christianity. “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.” It’s not dissimiliar from my 8-year-old son complaining he can’t move the pieces in chess whichever way he wants to.

AnAtheist:

E.g. Someone does not believe in God and does not want to go to Hell. Where will that person end up according to Christian doctrine?

No Christian can answer that question, despite a certain set of ludicrously presumptuous claims to the contrary. God is your judge. Not me.

AnAtheist:

To argue, both actions of that someone are equivalent, is twisting the meaning of the used words. Wanting a thing A or not is not the same as doing or not another thing B.

Hardly anyone except you is making such a muddled, very nearly incomprehensible argument.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[AnAtheist]

ncgolf:

What ??? One does not choose to believe in gravity. It just exists and we recoginize it for what it is and gave it a name. If we ignore it then death ensues, i.e. gravity won’t affect me … just watch me leap from this building. Babies learn this very quickly. It is not so much choosing but recognizing what is so plainly obvious. There are effects to not recognizing or ignoring gravity as there are effects to not recognizing or ignoring God.

Bravo, you got my point.

 

[AnAtheist]

mlchance:

Hardly anyone except you is making such a muddled, very nearly incomprehensible argument.

thistle did in post #29.

 

[mlchance]

AnAtheist:

thistle did in post #29.

That’s why I said “hardly anyone.” The presence of another person advancing the same untenable, very nearly incomprehensible argument doesn’t somehow validate that argument.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[thistle]

mlchance:

That’s why I said “hardly anyone.” The presence of another person advancing the same untenable, very nearly incomprehensible argument doesn’t somehow validate that argument.

– Mark L. Chance.

What did I say to deserve such a personal abusive tirade??

 

[ncgolf]

AnAtheist:

Bravo, you got my point.

Then Hell can exist … even if you don’t believe in it. One can suffer from an eternal punishment without ever believing or recognzing it. That is my point.