Ever-virgin during the birth of Christ?

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Atreyu

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From St Augustine, by way of the CCC:
510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” (⇒ Lk 1:38).
What does the bolded text mean? Without going into too much detail, does this mean that Jesus was at one moment inside the womb, and at the next he was miraculously outside - as it were - of Mary?
 
Atreyu said:
From St Augustine, by way of the CCC:
510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” (⇒ Lk 1:38).
What does the bolded text mean? Without going into too much detail, does this mean that Jesus was at one moment inside the womb, and at the next he was miraculously outside - as it were - of Mary?
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by virginal I believe it means the Blessed Virgin didn’t have ANY “relations” with any man, including her guardian-husband St Joseph. Being a virgin is more than just the physical condition of one’s sex organ.
 
You are right in your assumption. The ECF’s, such as Augustine, believed that the birth of Jesus was miraculous in nature. One of the Fathers described the birth of Jesus as having happened in a way that could be compared to light passing through glass.
 
Atreyu said:
From St Augustine, by way of the CCC:510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” (⇒ Lk 1:38).What does the bolded text mean? Without going into too much detail, does this mean that Jesus was at one moment inside the womb, and at the next he was miraculously outside - as it were - of Mary?
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Well if a male would masturbate he still remains a virgin. If a female does the same she is still a virgin also. If the membrane is broken by the birth then she is still a virgin.

Ken
 
kleary said:
Well if a male would masturbate he still remains a virgin. If a female does the same she is still a virgin also. If the membrane is broken by the birth then she is still a virgin.

Ken
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Well ok, but then what is the point of Augustine saying this? Your reasoning makes his comments redundant.
 
FCEGM said:
His point is to teach, as the Church still teaches, that the Blessed Mother remained a virgin - not just morally, but physically (virgo intacta) - before, during and after the birth of Christ.

newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm
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This is an important point to understand. The understanding of the Fathers was that virginity did not just include the lack of sexual relations but also the lack of the physical loss of the hymen. This is reflected in one of the prayers of the liturgy which states about Christ, “who did not spurn the virgins womb.”
 
Pax said:
You are right in your assumption. The ECF’s, such as Augustine, believed that the birth of Jesus was miraculous in nature. One of the Fathers described the birth of Jesus as having happened in a way that could be compared to light passing through glass.
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I believe many still hold to that concept, and I haven’t seen anything that could disprove that. His conception was extraordinary; so I see no reason why His birth couldn’t also be so. Just my humble opinion
 
Atreyu said:
From St Augustine, by way of the CCC:
510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” (⇒ Lk 1:38).
What does the bolded text mean? Without going into too much detail, does this mean that Jesus was at one moment inside the womb, and at the next he was miraculously outside - as it were - of Mary?
Click to expand...
Yes, Jesus did not impair Mary’s virginity in conception or birth. It was truly miraculous. The ECFs believed this but more importantly it is derived from Scripture:

“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).

Note that the “virgin” would both conceive and bear a son according to the inspired prophet.

Additionally, it’s pointed out by the Early Church that Mary was not assisted by a midwife in the birthing process. Accordingly, Luke states that Mary herself wrapped the infant Lord Jesus upon birth:

“And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn” (Luke 2:7).

This is not what one would expect from someone that was just in labor. If Jesus did not have a miraculous birth, Joseph would most likely be mentioned as the one wrapping the Child.
 
An early account, written about A.D. 120, of the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus can be found in the anonymous Catholic apocryphal work, Protoevangelium of James, paragraphs 19 & 20.
 
Mathetes007 said:
Yes
Additionally, it’s pointed out by the Early Church that Mary was not assisted by a midwife in the birthing process. Accordingly, Luke states that Mary herself wrapped the infant Lord Jesus upon birth:.
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there is also a tradition (small t, not Sacred Tradition) that a midwife attended the birth of Christ and herself examined Mary and declared that she was indeed still virgo intacta, that is, physically still a virgin. In any case the belief of the early Church was universal that her perpetual virginity is complete in its physical as well as moral aspects.
 
Well, the only thing I think it means is just what it says - that she remained a virgin even after giving birth to Jesus. How that happens, no one can definitively say because we weren’t there.

I find it perplexing that non-Catholics have such a problem believing that Mary remined a virgin after giving birth but do not have a problem believing that Mary conceived without the benefit of a man. If God can “overshadow” Mary so that she becomes pregnant then why is it so diffcult to believe that He could keep her hymen intact while giving birth?(If, in fact, it even happened that way).

They seem to think that God cannot make that happen or they’ll say that God “wouldn’t” do that! Even if Mary gave birth like the rest of womanhood, why could he not have kept her a virgin?

Part of the reason for this (I think) is that if there had been other children of Mary and Joseph’s union (of which there were none!) then there could’ve been some doubt as to the “specialness” of Jesus. What would make Jesus any different than the rest of his brothers and/or sisters? That was the reason why Matthew wrote his gospel; to prove who Jesus was; His lineage and that He fufilled the OT prophecy. Jesus was the only one conceived by the Holy Spirit and God saw fit to make all the things happen that needed to happen - including her virginity.

That’s just me…
 
If you read JPII’s Theology of the Body, you will see virginity in a different way. He puts forth the idea that Adam and Eve were virginal in the garden until they ate from the forbidden tree. Virginity has more to do with the body and the soul being “integrated,” or both as one.

Paul’s epistles mention the ongoing battle within himself: “I do that which I would not and do not do the things I would.” This is an example of the dis-integration caused by the fall. Mary was saved from this disharmony within herself. She was created, born, lived and died a virgin, with her body and soul completely integrated and her entire desire only to do God’s will.

We do believe in Mary’s continued physical virginity, but it is her spiritual virginity that we aspire to.
 
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