Every year around Pentecost I want to convert to Judaism

  • Thread starter Thread starter scapularkid8
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

scapularkid8

Guest
Okay, I need to address this issue. About every year for a few years now I want to convert to Judaism around Pentecost and that conviction is back again, just like clock work. It’s a combination of things that seem incredibly nonsensical once I articulate them out loud, but what seem very rational in my head. I hate saying these things, but I just can’t help but wonder them:
-I’m not sure that Jesus was the Messiah
-Shouldn’t the Messiah do something great? Wasn’t/Isn’t he supposed to usher in an era of peace and prosperity for Israel? (“They will beat their swords into plowshares”)
-The prayers seem to address God in such a more respectful way than just “Father” (“Blessed are You, God of The Universe”)
-If Christ was the Messiah, why didn’t He make a bigger deal about it?
-If there was a Covenant with the Jews, why would God need to make a new one? How would He keep the old one but have a new one with the Gentiles as well?

I’m feeling so weird and almost evil for thinking this, but faith in the death and Resurrection of Christ is so hard. I imagine even harder than the Israelites faith they had to have in God to deliver them from Egypt and Meriba and Manasseh…

I’m not trying to be blasphemous or heretical or anything like that, it’s just that I have a very “judicial” and almost Pharasee type approach to religion and that’s just what I see Jesus as. It’s hard for me to have a relationship with Him lately and I don’t know why. God the Father has always been incredibly close to my heart and soul and I almost always feel drawn to prayer with Him rather than The Son or The Spirit. Don’t know why. I’m confused why I keep thinking this. Maybe it’s a cynicism towards how I think the Church should resemble the New Jerusalem.
I’m confused.🤷
 
I can’t answer all your questions, but I will say this: your devotion to the Father is exactly what you should have as a Christian. Christ came to reveal the Father to us. Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide us along the way to the Father. Jesus did not come to give glory to Himself, but to give glory to the Father. Through Him, we reach the Father.
 
Hi Kid8

I’m a former Orthodox Jew. I converted to Catholicism when I was in my early 20s, not because Judaism is a bad faith, but because Catholicism was logical or rational. I flowed perfectly out of Judaism. Whereas Judaism does not flow out of Catholicism. Judaism actually supports Catholicism. Without Judaism, we would not have Catholicism, because all of the prophecies and gthe covenant came through Judaism. In a sense, going from Catholicism to Judaism is like going from high school to middle school. Logically, it doesn’t quite work.

When you move from Judaism to Catholicism you’re picking up something, the knowledge of Jesus Christ and redemption. When you move in the other direction, you’re not gaining, you’re losing. You are giving up everything that you know about Jesus and redemption and going back into the waiting stage.

By waiting stage I mean that spiritual level where you’re still waiting for God to complete his redemptive work.

I have a son your age. He’s just three weeks older than you are. This is the way that he explains his faith in Jesus Christ. My son doesn’t subscribe to CAF, so he is not interested in being the Pope or being infallible. You can take what he has to say about his faith at your age or you can let it go.

When I ask him if he believes in Jesus Christ. He says yes, that he does. He believes that Jesus is the Son of God, not because the Church tells him so, but because common sense tells him.

He is autistic. Autistic adolescents can be very intelligent, but they have one difference from other adolescents. They have difficulties with feelings. They can’t really express them appropriately or understand them well in other people. For my 18-year old son, this has been a blessing. Because he approaches faith through the head, not through feelings. So you see, even disabilities have their advantages.
scapularkid8 said:
-I’m not sure that Jesus was the Messiah
-Shouldn’t the Messiah do something great? Wasn’t/Isn’t he supposed to usher in an era of peace and prosperity for Israel? (“They will beat their swords into plowshares”)
Click to expand...
My son, whose initials are JRM says that Jesus has to be the Messiah because he proved to be everything that the Jews were not expecting. One time he said that if Jesus had proven to be everything that the Jews expected in the Messiah, such as the liberation of Israel from Rome, the restoration of independence, the fireworks and the Kingship of David and so forth, then he would not have been believeable.

I asked him why not. He said, “It’s would be hard for me to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, because he would be everything that the Jews wanted. It’s too perfect and too convenient. I would look like a scam that the Jews were pulling off just to get the Romans out of their country.”

“The fact that Jesus was different from what they expected proves that he was real and not planned.”

When he was studying for Confirmation I asked him about the covenants and this is how he responded.

“Dad, everyone knows that there is only one covenant. The bible doesn’t say that there are two covenants. It says that God made a covenant with the Jews and that’s why the Messiah had to be a Jew. This is what God promised them. He kept his promise.”

I asked him if understood how the covenant with Christianity worked and he said,

"It’s simple. God promised the Jews to send them a saviour and he kept his word. What he did not promise the Jews was that they could remain isolated. In reality there is not second covenant. There is only one covenant. But it’s like a good party. A few people hear about it and they check it out. They tell all their friends about it and the next thing you know, you have everyone of your other friends and even people you don’t know busting your party.

The Apostles were Jews. They saw Jesus and they couldn’t keep their mouths shut. The Gentiles heard about some guy who raisd the dead and cured the blind and promised to bring you back after you died and they wanted in on the covenant. It’s just like the good party I was talking about. The next thing you know, the place is full of people from everwhere, even people who are not related to you.

No one would hang around if the party turns out to be gay. But if the party is good they hang around and more people keep coming. This is the same thing. Jesus turned out to be legit. So people kept coming and soon you had more outsiders than Jews. I think this must have freaked the Jews out a little, because you (referring to me) people are like cats. You’re skittish. Maybe it has to do with all that stuff of being taken over by someone every other century. So the Jews didn’t hang around and the non Jews became part of the covenant."

Let me know what you think. This is the perspective of someone your age. You can also PM me.

I’ll check in on you later.

JR 🙂
 
Thank you for that. That was amazing. Tell your son that his perspective helped.

I guess one of the things that bothers me is that “skittish” thing he mentioned. I don’t like the fact that the party got so big that the Jews got the “VIP syndrome” and thought “This is lame, who are all these people? Let’s get out of here guys!” and off they go to there own VIP room.

I’m confused as to why the Jews didn’t stay with it. It seems like the novelty shouldn’t have worn off and more Jews should have saw Him as Messiah. Maybe I need to look at the Bible a little closer? Maybe I’m missing something about what God’s relationship with Israel and the world was promised by Him as…
 
scapularkid8 said:
Thank you for that. That was amazing. Tell your son that his perspective helped.

I guess one of the things that bothers me is that “skittish” thing he mentioned. I don’t like the fact that the party got so big that the Jews got the “VIP syndrome” and thought “This is lame, who are all these people? Let’s get out of here guys!” and off they go to there own VIP room.

I’m confused as to why the Jews didn’t stay with it. It seems like the novelty shouldn’t have worn off and more Jews should have saw Him as Messiah. Maybe I need to look at the Bible a little closer? Maybe I’m missing something about what God’s relationship with Israel and the world was promised by Him as…
Click to expand...
Our people didn’t exactly go to the VIP room. It was more like agoraphobia. They felt overwhelmed by all of these Gentiles.

Don’t forget, they had been enslaved, invaded, imprisoned, and martyred by the Gentiles.

When the Gentile Christians out numbered the Jewish Christians, the Orthodox Jews freaked out. They thought and still do, that Christianity was another gentile attempt to overpower them and wipe them out.

Jews have always been small in numbers.

JR 🙂
 
-Shouldn’t the Messiah do something great?

Isn’t rising from the dead and ascending into heaven great enough for you?
 
The Resurection is all the proof I need.

Please watch A Case for Christ (it’s a book as well) by Lee Strobel (sp?)…he was an Athesist, and he did a documentary on how he built a case for Christ… although some things he mentions go against Church teaching, in the end, he proves that Jesus was resurected from the dead and is alive, with common sense things that happened and with some tradition writings of the Early Church, etc. It’s really good.

God bless.
 
The problem is I don’t want to address this issue from an atheistic standpoint. I want to look at the Jewish requirements for Messiah-ship and see what Christ fulfilled. I’m still confused.
 
scapularkid8 said:
The problem is I don’t want to address this issue from an atheistic standpoint. I want to look at the Jewish requirements for Messiah-ship and see what Christ fulfilled. I’m still confused.
Click to expand...
Hi SK…it may be that you are simply being called to explore our Jewish heritage…These articles may make for a bit of reading and I have not read them all myself, but I am hoping you may find something helpful in them. None of the three articles below is overly long. They take the Catholic viewpoint on the Messianic Prophecies …The Lord’s blessings on your searching… and regards…Barb:)

The Messianic Prophecies (lists with reference details the actual Messianic Prophecies in Scripture):
scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

Article re The Messianic Prophecies (general article on the Messianic Prophecies)
catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Faith/1112-96/scriptur.html

Jewish thought and the Catholic reply (Jewish-Catholic dialogue - presents the Jewish thought with a Catholic reply)
secondexodus.com/html/jewishcatholicdialogue/messianicprophecies.htm
 
scapularkid
-I’m not sure that Jesus was the Messiah
Click to expand...
This is a matter of faith, given in revelation by Jesus himself, to us.

Faith isn’t the suppression of doubt.
-Shouldn’t the Messiah do something great?
Click to expand...
Dying on the cross and rising up again, wasn’t great enough for you? Do you know anyone else in the history of humankind, who can match this?
Wasn’t/Isn’t he supposed to usher in an era of peace and prosperity for Israel? (“They will beat their swords into plowshares”)
Click to expand...
This was the human idea of what the messiah was suppose to do, not God’s. Peace is in the heart, not in the lack of wars.
-The prayers seem to address God in such a more respectful way than just “Father” (“Blessed are You, God of The Universe”)
Click to expand...
I’ve never seen the difference. In fact, Jewish people I know, who have converted to Catholicism, connect easily with the prayers of the Church. After all, even the Liturgy of the Hours, is from Judaism, for the most part. But all prayer must be from the heart, i.e. contemplative prayer.
-If Christ was the Messiah, why didn’t He make a bigger deal about it?
Click to expand...
He was holy and being humble is part of being holy.
-If there was a Covenant with the Jews, why would God need to make a new one? How would He keep the old one but have a new one with the Gentiles as well?
Click to expand...
The covenant came first to the Jewish people, but God intended, that it be given to all human beings.

The new and everlasting covenant is salvation and everlasting life through Jesus Christ. God doesn’t limit Himself to one group of people only.

Jim
 
His Apostles stated that they had seen Him,
risen from the dead. Many of them would
meet with awful deaths, as they testified
about Him, and brought the good news to
as many human beings as they could.

You state that you feel called to convert at Pentecost.
I feel this way 365 days a year.
There is no season, in the church calendar,
when I feel especially called to this.
Not to actual conversion, but to live as a gentile
under the Noahide law.

My thought is as follows.

-God saved, long before Jesus of Nazareth came
-God offered a pasture, in which He gives repose,
in the “Old” Testament - the Hebrew Scriptures.
-God forgave sin, in the OT. “If your sins be as scarlet,
I will make them as white as snow.”

In short, God forgave sin, brought comfort,
and offered a place of repose, long before
Jesus of Nazareth walked among us.

The Covenant was one, for all time.
Any claims, otherwise, are mere faith-based assertions.

Passages, in the OT, are claimed to reference
the coming Messiah. Judaism rejects these
“interpretations,” and the claims based upon same.
A wholly human Messiah is awaited.

There are two elements that I think that one
need consider:

It is stated that Jesus rose from the dead.
It is also stated, by Saul of Tarsus, [St. Paul]
that human beings enter this world with
the sin of Adam and Eve extant in their being.
And that Jesus saves us from this sin.

The Church is well aware of the criticality of this teaching.

Without Original Sin, no need for a God/Man to save us from this.
The concept of Original Sin is wholly foreign to Judaic thought.
They didn’t know what Saul of Tarsus was talking about.
Judaism states that mankind experiences the effects of the *“yetzers.” *

quote: reen12. A post from 2005
It’s interesting, I think, to note that, in Judaism,
there is no concept of Original Sin.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/Human_Nature_Inherently_Good_or_Evil$_Ethics_of_th e_Fathers_17.asp

Though driven out of the garden, indirectly,
by the sin of the first parents, Judaism holds
that men and women are not “born in sin”, but
rather have an inclination toward good and an
inclination towards evil [the two “yetzers”].
Yetzer harah and yetzer hatov

http://www.torah.org/learning/ramcha…s/class12.html

In short, a wholly different view of the nature
of men and women, vis a vis their relationship
with God, and of the consequences of the “fall”
[limited to the physical deprivations of not residing
in the Garden…work by the sweat of the brow, etc.]
Click to expand...
[continued, in following post]

reen12
 
[contd.]

It was St. Paul who asserted:
If Christ is not risen, then our faith is in vain. [1 Corinthians 15:14]

I do not accept this assertion. A far more crititcal assertion
has to be accepted, even before one considers the resurrection of Jesus.

Is mankind born into this world, affected by Original Sin?

That is the “hinge” question, on which all of Christian theology is based.

Yet, precinding from all of the above, did Christ come
in order to make the God of Israel known to many nations?
Surely, members of Judaism are His chosen people.
Judaic thought is that all have a place in Olam Haba -
the 'World to Come," if they acknowledge the God Who is One,
and cleave to what are known as the Noahide commandments -
what Christian thought would describe as the Natural Law.

That is the stumbling block for me, in terms of whether
or no Jesus is Messiah. How would I even have a “position”
on Judaic thought* vs*. Christian doctrine - if it were not for Christianity?
It is more than likely that I would never have heard of the God Who is One.

Judaism does not at all seek converts. In Judaic thought,
all may be saved, without becoming a member of God’s chosen people.

And what were they chosen to do?
To proclaim that there is one God. That His will is to save.
That He is with them. That He gave to them His covenant,
for all time. They were to offer sacrifice to Him.
Yet even this obligation was not the most critical.
“What I desire is mercy, not sacrifice.”

Christians state that He is always with us. That all may
turn to Him and be saved. Further, the Catholic faith
states that the Church is the one true Church that Jesus
founded, and that all who are saved, are saved through Him,
conscious of the reality or not. God is held to be triune.
One God, in three divine Persons.

The reason that I think that Christ was likely the Son of God
and God Himself, is that knowledge of the one true God is now held
by over 2 billion people, in our own time. Though I will say that, to me,
Judaism has a gravitas that I find lacking in the Christian faith.

Today is the 60th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel.
May God protect His chosen people, who brought to the world
the knowledge of the one true God. May any who threaten His people
be brought down in confusion - their plans for destruction made null,
by the God Who saves all.

reen12
 
You have to read the Bible to see the prophecies fullfilled in Jesus. Remember everything is done. Jesus was waiting his time to be a human while God Father prepare the people for His coming.
God teaches in time, little by little. He chose a few and with metaphors was teaching; they thought those things were literal, those metaphores make sense with Jesus, who teaches us God is Spirit, God wants your soul; the important thing is after this life on earth. God never spoke to his People about resurrection until much later, they weren’t prepare to understand endless life when Moses was alive, they weren’t prepare to understand the simbol of the sacrifice of the lamb every day, they weren’t prepare to understand David’s battles as meaning fight with the evil one, they weren’t prepare to understand that what comes from inside is more important than the law.
Just like teaching to a kid.
 
The only thing I can really suggest is that you spend time with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. He will answer your doubts better than I ever could.
 
That Jesus of Nazareth may be the awaited Messiah,
I am willing to consider contenancing. But not for the
reasons claimed - by any church.

Why it is held that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Messiah?
I figure it is best to turn to Judaic sources for the reasons given.

aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp

As to growth in understanding, one might call to mind Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -
the great Patriarchs. Then there’s Moses. Somehow, I have a difficult time thinking that their capacity for “understanding” *any *reality - was somehow less than that of Saul of Tarsus -
who was hunting down Christians, one moment, and preaching the good news, the next.

Paul was an enthusiast. I do not care one bit, for St. Paul. Yet, I willingly
acknowledge, that he was the finest Christian theologian to ever draw breath.
That Saul saddled humanity with his introduction of man as “flawed to the core” -
larded with Original Sin - at birth, is his problem, not mine.

What it comes down to - is the question of the “inerrancy” of the scriptures -
the Hebrew Scriptures and/or the Christian Scriptures.
Many human beings have a low tolerance for uncertainty, in life.
From thence came the concept of ‘inerrancy.’

The scriptures convey:
-the fact of God’s exisitence
-His commandments
-His will to save
-His willingness to forgive sin
-His love and care for us
-His willingness to hear our prayer

This is a God to be trusted. Lack of trust is evidenced, to me,
by tome after tome of explanation - texts in “systematic” theology.
Dividing up grace into different “categories” - as if the gifts of Love were
proper matter for “systemization.” How does one ‘systemitize’ I AM ?
A religious version of “How do I love you? Let me count the ways.”
Actual grace, sanctifying grace, grace given by sacrament, created grace,
uncreated grace.

How complicated, apparently, love can be.

The Lord is my Shepherd,
I shall not want.
He maketh me to lay down in green pastures,
He leadeth me beside still waters,
He restores my soul…

What I always want to ask a given Christian is:
How can one read those words and think that we
require a messiah - to save us from sin? original, or otherwise?

By His gift, “There is nothing that I shall want.”

reen12
 
WHy do you think it is at this time of year that you focus on Judaism?
 
Valke2 said:
WHy do you think it is at this time of year that you focus on Judaism?
Click to expand...
I think it’s a combination of me coincidentally encountering tons of yarmulkes and tallis and thinking "Hmm, I wonder why we don’t have something like that, after all, we are the members of the New Covenant and we carry the Messiah’s Good News to every tribe on Earth, not just Judah, Naphtali, Reuben, Levi, ect. Then it’s only logical to move to the next step: What does the Messiah require of us like that in our daily lives? Then it’s: Was he really the Messiah? What was/is the Messiah? Then I encounter two different answers.
  1. The Messiah rebuilt the Temple within Himself and among His People (whether they be Gentile or Jew) by dying (destroying it) and rising (rebuilding it). He began an era of peace in the hearts of His People and offers Peace if we are willing to accept it because He won’t force it upon us. He Fulfilled or “matured” the Torah by summarizing “You shall Love your God with all your mind and heart and strength, and Love your neighbor like yourself.” This is all God requires of those who serve Him.
2)This alleged Messiah did not rebuild the physical Temple and we have yet to continue offerings on an altar. He did not bring in an era of political and tangible peace. It is irrelevant that the Gentiles be included in any other Covenant with the LORD other than that of Noah. He minimized the importance of the 613 mitzvot by de-emphasizing their importance in service to God.
 
Scapular

I really want you to think about this. Are you attracted to the externals of Judaism and the fact that they are very different from most monotheistic religions or are you really knowledgeable of the Jewish faith and are attracted to it?

I came from Judaism and am very proud of my Jewish roots. Desipite what the rabbinical scholars say about the Messiah in the prophecies, not a single Rabbinical scholar has ever attempted to deny or explain away the resurrection.

The convincing event for the Jews who followed Jesus were not the prophecies, it was the resurrection.

The connection between the prophecies and Jesus’ Messiahship came much later and is still a matter of exegesis even today. There is no question as to the fact that something happened on Easter Sunday that turned the history of the world on its head.

The question is how does it all connect with the prophecies. It’s not whether Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that is on the table.

What is on the table is that how do the prophecies fit the events of the first Easter.

JR 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Scapular

Desipite what the rabbinical scholars say about the Messiah in the prophecies, not a single Rabbinical scholar has ever attempted to deny or explain away the resurrection.
Click to expand...
??? Are you suggesting that Jews somehow acknowledge that Jesus was resurrected???
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top