Everyone focuses on the Mass! What about about the other changes?

[Dempsey1919]

Apart from the Mass, what else changed after Vatican II? I know that all of the Sacraments changed, but most traditionalists only mention the Mass. How did the other six Sacraments change? How did the Sacrament of Holy Orders change, for example?

Also, what about feast days? Are there any feast days that are no longer celebrated?

What about Saints? Have some of the Saints been forgotten or marginalised since Vatican II?

What about things like the Agnus Dei sacramentals?

What about devotions? Have they increased or decreased since the Council?

How has the book of blessings changed?

I want to discuss all of the changes made since the Council. Please share your knowledge and experiences in the aftermath of the Council. The questions above were asked primarily to start the discussion; and I’m really interested to learn of any changes that you may know of.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I do know that the Roman Breviary was changed in 1910-1911 by a radical redistribution of the Psalter, even though the original Pian breviary was prefaced with a bull similar in language to Quo primum.

No traditionalist has complained about that. I wonder why?

 

[cam100]

Whoa! That’s a lot for one thread! I would break it up and try to make one thread for each of your questions. As you probably know, all of the topics you mentioned have changed, some due to official decrees and some due to non-official changes in practice. It’s hard to know where to start.

 

[cam100]

I do know that the Roman Breviary was changed in 1910-1911 by a radical redistribution of the Psalter, even though the original Pian breviary was prefaced with a bull similar in language to Quo primum.

No traditionalist has complained about that. I wonder why?

Probably because:

1. It was done by a pope that traditional Catholics tend to uphold as a role model.
2. Few Catholics alive today were around then, so it doesn’t seems as important today.
3. It did not affect lay people much.
4. It did not occur at the same time as a major shift towards secularism among Catholics, so was not associated with unpleasant events.
5. In conjunction with #4, most Catholics at the time had more respect for the pope, so they just accepted the change without question. Thus, the Church had no problem with it, and traditional Catholics today tend to accept anything that was allowed to exist unchallenged by the pre-Vat II Church.
6. Related to the above, most Catholics are unaware of the details of this occurrence, and probably have never even heard about it.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Whoa! That’s a lot for one thread! I would break it up and try to make one thread for each of your questions. As you probably know, all of the topics you mentioned have changed, some due to official decrees and some due to non-official changes in practice. It’s hard to know where to start.

This thread is more of a discussion; it’s not really about any specific change that occured. I just thought I’d ask those questions to give examples and start the conversation rolling.

By all means answer some of the original questions but don’t feel limited by them.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**Probably because:
…

1. It did not affect lay people much.**

**That’s probably the REAL reason.

But from my point of view, especially with Lauds and the Little Hours, it represented a BIG change.**

 

[ethelzguy]

Probably because:

1. It was done by a pope that traditional Catholics tend to uphold as a role model.
2. Few Catholics alive today were around then, so it doesn’t seems as important today.
3. It did not affect lay people much.
4. It did not occur at the same time as a major shift towards secularism among Catholics, so was not associated with unpleasant events.
5. In conjunction with #4, most Catholics at the time had more respect for the pope, so they just accepted the change without question. Thus, the Church had no problem with it, and traditional Catholics today tend to accept anything that was allowed to exist unchallenged by the pre-Vat II Church.
6. Related to the above, most Catholics are unaware of the details of this occurrence, and probably have never even heard about it.

Welcome to Luby’s

 

[AJV]

Apart from the Mass, what else changed after Vatican II? I know that all of the Sacraments changed, but most traditionalists only mention the Mass. How did the other six Sacraments change? How did the Sacrament of Holy Orders change, for example?

All the rites surrounding the sacrament of Holy Orders were changed. Many of the changes are equally contested, but I suppose that would be another thread all by itself

The central parts of the rite of Holy Orders was the Prex whcih dates back to the earliest Roman sacramentaries. Since 1947, it was also defined that the Prex constituted the form of the Sacrament and contained the essentail words.The prex for the diaconate was retained in large measure. That for a priest was initially also not greatly different except for some additions. However in a furhter revision in 1989 the similarities with the orginal prayer were greatly diminished. The Prex for the Bishop was new claiming inspiration from Eastern sources inclduing the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus.

Aside form these, many of the rites and cermeonies that had grown up around this Prayer were relocated, altered or abolished.

Also, what about feast days? Are there any feast days that are no longer celebrated?

Several feasts were assigned to new dates and the universal calendar has changed as a simple comparison of the Traditional and NO calendars will show you. Saints removed are still celebrated on local calendars. The only saint I think is not is St. Philomena who was ordered to be removed from all calendars in 1961. But I’m not sure - since there are at least 2 churches I know of (one a shrine) dedicated to her…

How has the book of blessings changed?

The blessings have been greatly revamped thanks to many of the ideas of the experts at that time. For one thing, a lot of blessings now bless the people using X item instead of the item. There is also an increased euchological emphasis. As with many other rites, all blessings now also have (optional) Liturgy of the Word accompanying it.

To get an idea, you may find this article interesting. Even though it’s scope is very much restricted, he has an insight into many fot eh general principles that governed the revision (link)

(Another thing you might be interested in are the online articles from that journal dealing with the rite of exorcism )

 

[JuanCarlos]

I do know that the Roman Breviary was changed in 1910-1911 by a radical redistribution of the Psalter, even though the original Pian breviary was prefaced with a bull similar in language to Quo primum.

No traditionalist has complained about that. I wonder why?

Thats ultimately what led me to reject ultra-traditionalism, for lack of a better word. The Roman Breviary was completely changed- the old breviary had a set of Psalms that were prayed every day, with a few changes from day-to-day reciting- thus it was extremely repetitive with just enough variety to fit all 150 Psalms in a week. However, on Sundays there were also seven “floating Psalms” that couldn’t fit into the weekly breviary so they were randomly prayed throughout the day. The breviary of Pius X eliminated all repetition.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The blessings have been greatly revamped thanks to many of the ideas of the experts at that time. For one thing, a lot of blessings now bless the people using X item instead of the item. There is also an increased euchological emphasis. As with many other rites, all blessings now also have (optional) Liturgy of the Word accompanying it.

Was the Book of Blessings improved as a result?

Does the modern Book still include special blessings for the Rosary or the St. Benedict medal?

I ask this because I have heard that these two sacramentals have special prayers that are used for the blessing procedure.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Was the Book of Blessings improved as a result?

Does the modern Book still include special blessings for the Rosary or the St. Benedict medal?

I ask this because I have heard that these two sacramentals have special prayers that are used for the blessing procedure.

The EC still uses a wonderful book of blessings. Last Sunday after Liturgy all the cars were blessed. The blessing was done and Father said now our cars were blessed like chariots of FIRE and told us to drive slower then that.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

I do know that the Roman Breviary was changed in 1910-1911 by a radical redistribution of the Psalter, even though the original Pian breviary was prefaced with a bull similar in language to Quo primum.

No traditionalist has complained about that. I wonder why?

And guess which Pope did this? It was that raving Modernist, St. Pius X!

I love irony.

 

[AJV]

Was the Book of Blessings improved as a result?

I suppose that would depend on who you ask.

Does the modern Book still include special blessings for the Rosary or the St. Benedict medal?

I ask this because I have heard that these two sacramentals have special prayers that are used for the blessing procedure.

Yes, but as I said: unless one uses the “short form” (In the name of the Father + and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit), it calls down a blessing on the people who use the rosary rather than the rosary itself.

 

[Lhhs]

What about all the other things. . .

we use an old calendar and old missal. And old sacraments.

 

[ProVobis]

The EC still uses a wonderful book of blessings. Last Sunday after Liturgy all the cars were blessed. The blessing was done and Father said now our cars were blessed like chariots of FIRE and told us to drive slower then that.

That proves your Mass was superior to mine. I got a traffic ticket for parking in front of the Church last Sunday.

I don’t remember my getting a parking ticket ever before that.

 

[cathguy]

Apart from the Mass, what else changed after Vatican II? I know that all of the Sacraments changed, but most traditionalists only mention the Mass. How did the other six Sacraments change? How did the Sacrament of Holy Orders change, for example?

Also, what about feast days? Are there any feast days that are no longer celebrated?

What about Saints? Have some of the Saints been forgotten or marginalised since Vatican II?

What about things like the Agnus Dei sacramentals?

What about devotions? Have they increased or decreased since the Council?

How has the book of blessings changed?

I want to discuss all of the changes made since the Council. Please share your knowledge and experiences in the aftermath of the Council. The questions above were asked primarily to start the discussion; and I’m really interested to learn of any changes that you may know of.

The ordinal changed beyond all recognition; Cranmer almost could have written the new one.

 

[AJV]

The ordinal changed beyond all recognition; Cranmer almost could have written the new one.

With the “high priesthood” and all? That seems a bit unlikely to me.

 

[Templar_Knight]

Hello,
I’m new and have read some of these posts. I think this might be the place for me to ask this question: Is it, or when did it, become OK to talk in church? I’m old and so I recall the mass before and right after Vatican II but I don’t remember people talking out loud in church, even when the mass wasn’t being said. Now it is commonplace before and especially after mass to carry on conversations in the isles and pews. Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[strugglingalong]

What about the teaching on Religious Freedom? That was on the major - if not the major - issue Archbishop Lefebvre had with the changes that had come about.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Hello,
I’m new and have read some of these posts. I think this might be the place for me to ask this question: Is it, or when did it, become OK to talk in church? I’m old and so I recall the mass before and right after Vatican II but I don’t remember people talking out loud in church, even when the mass wasn’t being said. Now it is commonplace before and especially after mass to carry on conversations in the isles and pews. Can anyone shed some light on this?

This, like most of the innovations created “in the Spirit of Vatican II,” can’t be blamed on Vatican II per se, since the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy never said that it’s okay (or not okay) to talk in church. Silence in church was just a custom that developed over time and was then thrown out thanks to the liberal and modernist spirit that pervaded all aspects of society (not just the Church) in the sixties and seventies.