Everyone's a Sinner

[Loud-living-dogma]

I think there is a difference between people who are unrepentant sinners who openly flout God’s law, and Christian believers who are striving to be saints.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have read about great saints who, having lived holy lives, were on their deathbeds begging God to be merciful to them, “a poor sinner”. I’m certainly not going to be putting myself mentally above those saints.

Also, the Jesus Prayer that I regularly say goes, “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.”
It doesn’t say, “have mercy on me, a repentant sinner,” or “have mercy on me, a sinner whose sins aren’t as bad as the child molesters and murderers I just saw on the news.”

We are ALL sinners.
Period.
Anyone who has trouble accepting this about themself needs to think and pray on it more.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Mary never sinned?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Mary never sinned?

That’s correct. She never sinned.
She had to be sinless in order to carry God in her womb.

Edited to add, see CCC 508:

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. “Full of grace”, Mary is “the most excellent fruit of redemption” ( SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Hmmm…

One thing I could never get behind…Christ was the only “sinless” human hence His ability to be the ultimate sacrifice…

In Mary was found favor, but I never thought she lived her entire life sinless…not to take anything away from her, but to give glory to Christ…

Your mileage may vary…

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I just posted the Catechism reference above, so feel free to take your disagreement up with the Magisterium.
It’s an established doctrine of the Church that Mary never sinned.
It’s not “my mileage” or “my opinion”.

 

[BlueMaxx]

The phrase “your mileage may vary” means I believe different from you, not that your belief is correct nor incorrect…and yes I know the Church’s teaching on it…I was simply expressing my view.

I was not hunting for bear…

 

[Quis_UtDeus]

This is rather a different topic and issue from the current thread. Perhaps take it up in a different thread or private message?

I just posted the Catechism reference above, so feel free to take your disagreement up with the Magisterium.
It’s an established doctrine of the Church that Mary never sinned.
It’s not “my mileage” or “my opinion”.

I suppose you mean Solemn declaration that Mary never sinned? Since it is doctrine within the Universal Ordinary Magisterium isn’t it?

 

[BlueMaxx]

I shall take nothing elsewhere, it is an honest response…there was no hidden agenda behind it…

 

[Vico]

Wow. You believers are tough !
I honestly thought that I’d get a little give and take -
Maybe this is what some might call - the root of “ Catholic Guilt “ -
Can we at least be happy and confident in Jesus sinners then -
Does it really have to be - point blank - “ sinners “ -
I bet Jesus never called anybody a sinner -

John 8

39 They answered and said to him, “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40 But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father!” [So] they said to him, “We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Can any of you charge me with sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God.”

Matthew 12

33 “Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. 37 By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

[Dlee]

Can we put ourselves above this phrase - or is that a sin ?

Are you saying that as a Christian, you no longer sin? I guess I don’t understand why you find difficulty saying everyone is a sinner.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Everyone’s doing it (sinning) sounds like an excuse.

Everyone is called to faith, repentance, holiness, sainthood.

Jesus: “Be perfect even as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

“Everyone’s a sinner” is a phrase that I heard too often in Presbyterian churches before I reverted home to the RCC.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Maybe this will help you.
There are guys in prison and will be there for a long time. Stop for a moment and think, if they had the blessings that you and I had enjoyed, they might very well have become holy men of God. Perhaps I’ve enjoyed a home with 2 parents, had the opportunity to go to school, graces from going to church, that these men never had. Maybe God poured out many graces on us and we wasted many graces. Think how he could have responded much better to the gospel than I did. It’s very sobering to think on that.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Apostle Paul: I am the chief of sinners

Pharisees to Jesus (implied): You are a sinner.

Hypocrites with a beam in their eye: I see your sin. I don’t see mine.

Excuse makers: Everyone’s a sinner. (Implied: what’s so bad about sinning?).

Theology: It is godly to hate sin. Sin separates us from God. Hating sin is an evidence of conversion.

 

[Lee1]

A non believer asked me why I talked about sin rather than mistakes. It’s a good point. When I as a religious person make a mistake I have to examine it to test whether it leads me away from God, would cause His disapproval. If it does then it is sin, if it does not then it is simply a mistake. Sin has far deeper meaning than the meaning of mistake.

Our sins are valuable lessons and if we seek to change through regret and reconciliation via Confession then they help us towards salvation. To call ourselves sinners then is a recognition of our imperfection and a healthy thing I think because it helps with humility, we can’t be humble and rebellious* simultaneously and so we are then more acceptable to God I believe.

*is cancer rebellion?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

A “mistake” to me is something that a person does by accident or without the intention of doing wrong thing.
A “sin” is a deliberate choice.
I cannot understand how anyone with any sense of taking personal responsibility for their own actions would confuse the two things.
Anyone who calls sins “mistakes” is operating on a very juvenile level, sort of like those lawyers who claim that their 21-year-old client drinking 5 shots and getting behind the wheel of a car (or doing even worse things, like rape) “just made a mistake”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Everyone’s a sinner” is a phrase that I heard too often in Presbyterian churches before I reverted home to the RCC.

Whether you like it or not, it’s a factually true statement.

If it is used to justify sin - “everybody’s sinning, we can’t help it, so I’ll just go sin” - then that’s obviously the wrong attitude.

However, if someone is thinking themself to be above sinners, or above some of the other sinners, they should remind themself that everybody is a sinner, including themselves, and they along with all the other sinners are in need of God’s mercy and forgiveness.

 

[Lee1]

Is this agreement or are you pointing out a mistake I’ve made in my post?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I am in agreement and am expanding on the discussion topic.
I do not disagree with what you wrote but am wondering how anyone with a sense of personal responsibility for their own actions would have even asked you that question.

 

[Lee1]

Oh ok. I think they were referring to the frequent use of my reference to sin rather than specifics, especially serious instances like drink driving etc. I find a lot of people seem to operate on a more, shall we say, superficial level in life and don’t think too deeply before speaking, or acting for that matter. This is something that a Catholic may not do as we must carefully choose our words and acts if we can, without being paralysed with fear of course.

I lived like that before I was a Catholic. What a difference consideration of Our Lords teachings makes!

Peace @tisbear