Everything Changes / the Buddist notion of Anatta

[annem]

Matthew Light:

Anything that can be “grasped” will change, for sure.

Hi, an interesting position.

However, all you are saying, in essence, is that you deny Jesus Christ, because, of course, if Jesus was/is God, then then reality does exist. Then you can grasp something. And truth, other than death, exists.

Is this correct?

God bless you, Annem

 

[annem]

Slartibartfast

It is a common misconception that the aim of Buddhist meditation is to suppress thoughts.

Hi, and thanks for joining the discussion. I don’t believe I wrote that the aim of Buddhist meditation was to suppress thought but to ‘extinguish’ it. And to dwell on the impermanence of all, which I got from books by Thich Nhat Hanh. So he was wrong on this, or I mistook him?

Hanh also argues that suffering is caused by our “delusion”. So, you truly believe that if a car runs into you and chops off both your legs, only “delusion” causes your agony? That appears to be Hanh’s conclusion, based on his statement:"It is our delusion that causes suffering ".

God bless you, Annem

 

[Slartibartfast]

Slartibartfast

Hi, and thanks for joining the discussion. I don’t believe I wrote that the aim of Buddhist meditation was to suppress thought but to ‘extinguish’ it. And to dwell on the impermanence of all, which I got from books by Thich Nhat Hanh. So he was wrong on this, or I mistook him?

Hi, Well it was too interesting to ignore
We cannot stop thoughts; Buddhism ( as I understand it) teaches that we should let them arise and pass without attaching, or identifying with them. There are two main types of Buddhist meditation: Vipassana and Samatha. Samatha seeks to build concentration to very refined levels. It is possible that in these states thoughts naturally diminish to the point that they no longer occur.

Vipassana meditation trains one to perceive the impermanence in every moment, in every experience. The purpose for this is to experience the reality that there is nothing in our conditioned experience which is permanent. Consequently, we are aware of Anicca, Anatta and Dukha (Impermanence, non-self and suffering).

Hanh also argues that suffering is caused by our “delusion”. So, you truly believe that if a car runs into you and chops off both your legs, only “delusion” causes your agony? That appears to be Hanh’s conclusion, based on his statement:"It is our delusion that causes suffering ".

God bless you, Annem

Yes, I can see why you would say that. I don’t think that TNH would agree that it doesn’t hurt, though. He might say that our reaction is the core of the problem though, even under such dreadful conditions. To achieve equanimity in such a situation would be beyond lesser mortals like you and me

Buddhism seeks to retrain us; to end the cycle of action/reaction that binds us to suffering. In fact, that is not so very different from Christianity is it?

Bhavatu sabba mangalam _/|_

 

[annem]

Slartibartfast

 nothing in our conditioned experience which is permanent. Consequently, we are aware of Anicca, Anatta and Dukha (Impermanence, non-self and suffering).

Hi. So if there is no self, yet there is suffering, which, again, is merely a concept that doesn’t exist, why does reality seem so stubbornly all around us? What has created this reality? Why can’t we make it go away?

Do you believe the pantheistic entity, a nonthinking entity, merely roils life along, with little children dying, with the innocent made to suffer, and does it with the blank indifference of a molecule? Why is understanding suffering as an illusion any different than merely being a person who sees the suffering but doesn’t care because he is heartless? Please explain.

Buddhism seeks to retrain us; to end the cycle of action/reaction that binds us to suffering. In fact, that is not so very different from Christianity is it?

Actually, I am amazed that you could write those words. No, there is nothing, nothing at all in Catholicism that seeks to “retrain” us or “end the cycle of action/reaction that binds us to suffering”. There is no wheel of life in Catholicism. No cycles, no samsara…

Suffering is not a central concept for Christianity. Much more basic is that there is a God and that God came down from heaven to reveal himself, to show that we are his children, and to open heaven to us.

That is not to say Catholicism has nothing to say about suffering; on the contrary. God has promised us He will turn our suffering here on earth into a positive, just as we are promised by God that all evil will be defeated, and that we will all find perfect justice.

God bless you, Annem

 

[Matthew_Light]

Matthew Light:
However, all you are saying, in essence, is that you deny Jesus Christ, because, of course, if Jesus was/is God, then then reality does exist. Then you can grasp something. And truth, other than death, exists.

Is this correct?

No.

 

[annem]

Matthew Light

No

Why?

God bless you, Annem

 

[arthra]

Anatma as it is in Sanskrit or Anatta… to me goes back to the circumstances of the life of the Buddha… The teaching that there was not a permanent soul or atman…

The Brahmin priests would offer to chant prayers for the soul of the departed and charge fees for this…

By attacking the permanence of the soul or Atman … the Buddha was also attacking one of the perquisites of the Brahmin priesthood.

 

[annem]

arthra

The Brahmin priests would offer to chant prayers for the soul of the departed and charge fees for this…

Hi, nice to hear from you. I don’t know about other countries, but today the Buddhist priests in Japan charge for prayers, etc., for the dead. Quite a lot. And they require money for the maintenance, not only during the lifetime of the sons and daughters, but for generation after generation.

the Buddha was also attacking one of the perquisites of the Brahmin priesthood.

The caste system in India has forced the poor to endure thousands upon thousands of years of unbelievable torment.

We should all be grateful that Christianity is growing there, not only because it is saving souls, but also because it aids the Dalits and other lower classes by offering them a better life. Although gangs of Hindus have attacked Christians, killing some and destroying homes and churches.

You speak of " the circumstances of the life of the Buddha" which rather surprised me. What evidence is there that Buddha existed?

God bless you, Annem

 

[Slartibartfast]

Slartibartfast

Hi. So if there is no self, yet there is suffering, which, again, is merely a concept that doesn’t exist, why does reality seem so stubbornly all around us? What has created this reality? Why can’t we make it go away?

The Buddha never actually said that there is no self; He said that there was no self which could be found in what we experience (such as our feelings, for example).
Suffering does exist, it is the one of the Four Noble Truths. The first , in fact.
The Buddha declined to answer questions regarding this reality. He explained that it was a distraction to try to understand such matters.
The Buddha claimed we could free ourselves from it by following the path of his teachings.

Do you believe the pantheistic entity, a nonthinking entity, merely roils life along, with little children dying, with the innocent made to suffer, and does it with the blank indifference of a molecule? Why is understanding suffering as an illusion any different than merely being a person who sees the suffering but doesn’t care because he is heartless? Please explain.

I am not representing Buddhism, merely trying to answer your questions because I have a great deal of experience on the subject. My beliefs are not relevant here.
Again, suffering is not an illusion; The Buddha says that it is a reality brought about by our lack of understanding.
Buddhists do care; they cultivate compassion.

Actually, I am amazed that you could write those words. No, there is nothing, nothing at all in Catholicism that seeks to “retrain” us or “end the cycle of action/reaction that binds us to suffering etc”.

Well actually, I wasn’t referring to the whole gamut of Buddhist beliefs surrounding Samsara. I was reflecting upon the fact that when one begins to practice Christianity, one’s attitude, morality and focus shifts. This shift has a transformative effect which leads us away from negative ways which cause suffering. At least, I thought that was part of the Church’s message. For example. the Church teaches forgiveness. If we forgive, we no longer harbour grudges and are freed from the suffering caused by such behaviour.

Hope that helps

 

[rossum]

From your statement I can only conclude that you are a pantheist, is this correct? Or are you a Buddhist atheist?

I am a Buddhist agnostic. Gods may or may not exist. Their existence, or non-existence is not of any particular importance. The primary function of the gods in Buddhist scriptures is to applaud at the right places when the Buddha is speaking.

Essentially, at any rate, you deny Jesus Christ.

Why would I do that? Jesus was, very probably, an advanced Bodhisattva. I do disagree with attempts by some to drag Him down to the level of a mere god. Bodhisattvas are higher than gods.

A Catholic would argue that Jesus/God is the ultimate reality and truth.

Trying to grasp at an “ultimate reality” is only a recipe for suffering. The parable of the blind men and the elephant applies here.

rossum

 

[Techno2000]

The Servant.–Ah, sweet and dear Lord, how like a sweet harp are these words to a suffering mortal! Lord, Lord, wouldst Thou but cheer me thus and come to visit me in my sufferings, I should be glad to suffer; it would then be better for me to suffer than not to suffer.

Eternal Wisdom.–Now, then, hearken to the sweet music of the distended strings of that Divine harp–a God-suffering man–how richly it sounds, how sweetly it vibrates. Before the world, suffering is a reproach, but before Me it is an infinite honour.

Suffering is an extinguisher of My wrath, and an obtainer of My favour. Suffering makes a man in My sight worthy of love, for the sufferer is like Me. Suffering is a hidden treasure which no one can make good; and though a man might kneel before Me a hundred years to beg a friendly suffering, he nevertheless would not earn it. Suffering changes an earthly man into a heavenly man. Suffering brings with it the estrangement of the world, but confers, instead, My intimate familiarity. It lessens delight and increases grace.
catholictreasury.info/books/eternal_wisdom/ew14.php

 

[Matthew_Light]

Matthew Light

Why?

God bless you, Annem

Well, it was a list of beliefs I don’t hold, so I said no.

 

[annem]

Slartibartfast

suffering is not an illusion; The Buddha says that it is a reality brought about by our lack of understanding.

Hi. Well, I have heard this again and again, but isn’t this simply a denial of reality? My lack of understanding has nothing to do with my leg being cut off by a car. Nothing. Nor does my lack of caring about being hurt, or the fact that I am screaming in pain, alter the actual reality in any way. Please prove how it doesn’t.

Moreover, by claiming that all life is suffering, isn’t Buddhism denying love? On what basis would anyone claim all life is suffering? Or that my desire for something is suffering and is wrong? Doesn’t this make Buddhism basically a nihilist philosophy that denies truth?

Buddhists do care; they cultivate compassion.

Sorry, but how has Buddhism shown compassion? Tell me. Give me the historical facts. Because I can prove that, historically, Christianity has shown more compassion than any other religion. Do you dispute this?

This is a very interesting discussion and I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am,

May God bless you, Annem

 

[annem]

rossum:

Trying to grasp at an “ultimate reality” is only a recipe for suffering.

Hi, thanks for your comments.

Yes, Buddhism was, from the first, all about how this world was suffering, caused by our desire to not to suffer. Which doesn’t make sense.

Hours and hours, day after day, year after year of meditation by Buddhist monks has caused no effect in this world. Do you deny it?

.

Gods may or may not exist. Their existence, or non-existence is not of any particular importance. T

On the contrary; if God exists, you will live forever. If God exists, love and joy exist.

God bless you, Annem

 

[annem]

Matthew Light

it was a list of beliefs I don’t hold, so I said no.

Hi Matthew,

So, do you wish to discuss them?’

God bless you, Annem

 

[rossum]

Yes, Buddhism was, from the first, all about how this world was suffering,

Correct, though sometimes “unsatisfactory” is a better translation of the original dukkha. It roughly corresponds to the Christian concept of a “fallen” world.

caused by our desire to not to suffer.

No, caused by our desire for the world to be different to the way it actually is. The suffering is caused by the mismatch between our desires and reality. There are different ways to avoid desire. Avoiding the desire not to suffer is like avoiding the desire to go to New York. If we travel to New York, then we no longer have the desire to go to New York – we are there already. To avoid the desire not to suffer, we can attain nirvana. Suffering no longer exists for us because we are no longer attached to it. We no longer grasp it.

Nirvana is not like heaven, it is attainable here and now. The Buddha attained nirvana at age 35, he died age 80. For 45 years he lived in the same world as the rest of us, but at the same time he had attained nirvana.

Hours and hours, day after day, year after year of meditation by Buddhist monks has caused no effect in this world. Do you deny it?

Yes I do deny it. Meditation has measurable effects on the practitioners: Buddhists ‘really are happier’.

There are also lay Buddhists, who are involved in charity work: Tzu Chi Foundation The Karuna Trust. They have an effect in this world.

On the contrary; if God exists, you will live forever.

You think that you are offering me something I want. I do not. Life is suffering, so living forever is eternal suffering. Even the Christian heaven is eternal suffering. “Love your neighbour as yourself.” Can you be happy knowing that those you love as yourself are suffering in hell for eternity?

You are offered a free holiday in five star luxury. In the next room, those you love are being tortured. You can hear their screams and there is video feed of their sufferings. Do you enjoy your holiday?

Buddhism is not Christianity; it is an error to assume that they are the same.

rossum

 

[Matthew_Light]

Matthew Light

Hi Matthew,

So, do you wish to discuss them?’

God bless you, Annem

Well, this is a thread about Buddhism, and I am a Baha’i.

So for me to discuss my beliefs would be pretty far off topic.

But I will say that I don’t deny that Jesus Christ is Lord, and I wouldn’t deny His divine nature. Hence, my “no”.

When I discuss “grasping” it is only to distinguish who Christ really is, and our very limited understanding of Christ.

We have to realize that our understanding of Christ, is not Christ!

We can see this by realizing how many Christians in the past had very very different understandings of Christ, which were sometimes very problematic.

“Now we see through a glass darkly”…

 

[rossum]

We have to realize that our understanding of Christ, is not Christ!

“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”

rossum

 

[Slartibartfast]

Slartibartfast

Hi. Well, I have heard this again and again, but isn’t this simply a denial of reality? My lack of understanding has nothing to do with my leg being cut off by a car. Nothing. Nor does my lack of caring about being hurt, or the fact that I am screaming in pain, alter the actual reality in any way. Please prove how it doesn’t.

Well, can you envisage the idea that humans have ‘levels of being’? This level of being can be enhanced by training ourselves. My level of being could not tolerate the excruciating pain you depict. That doesn’t mean to say that there is nobody who can. In other words, I suggest that we struggle to understand coping with such a situation because we are not advanced enough.
If you were to use a less extreme example, I am sure it would be easier to see the way in which Buddhist teachings can train us to resist automated responses which result in suffering.

Moreover, by claiming that all life is suffering, isn’t Buddhism denying love? On what basis would anyone claim all life is suffering? Or that my desire for something is suffering and is wrong? Doesn’t this make Buddhism basically a nihilist philosophy that denies truth?

The Buddha said “There is suffering’”, not that all life is suffering. The point that needs to be understood is that , unless we arrive at a different understanding, we are liable to suffer.
E.G I go on a lovely holiday. It ends. Now it is Monday morning and I have to go to work. I feel miserable. So was the holiday all suffering? of course not! What is wrong is my reaction to returning to work.

Sorry, but how has Buddhism shown compassion? Tell me. Give me the historical facts. Because I can prove that, historically, Christianity has shown more compassion than any other religion. Do you dispute this?

This is a very interesting discussion and I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am,

May God bless you, Annem

Is this a competition then?
I know Buddhists who completely outclass many Christians by the acts they perform for people. I don’t think you are in a position to judge. My Buddhist friends who have spent years as volunteers visiting people in hospices and hospitals or setting up schools in deprived countries etc. would be rather affronted by your ideas about that.
Can we bring the damage caused by those claiming to be Christians into the debate?

It is a very interesting discussion and tackles some difficult issues. I am enjoying it but it has made me late for work on a couple of occasions

 

[annem]

rossum:

To avoid the desire not to suffer, we can attain nirvana. Suffering no longer exists for us because we are no longer attached to it. We no longer grasp it.

Hi. Sorry, but I find a number of serious problems here. First, the world is not all about suffering. What about love? So Buddha (should he have existed) was wrong about the first precept. And if you’re wrong about the first premise, upon which you built all others, what does that say about Buddhism?

Next, attaining nirvana is pointless, if nirvana is extinction, the extinction of all that is you. In effect, the best a Buddhist can attain is death, the utter end of all that you are, all your thoughts and personality and memories. In effect, isn’t nirvana merely another description death itself, a death that every beetle and person in this world will attain, irregardless of meditation or even the smallest concept of Buddhism.

Next, there is a problem with karma and the endless reincarnations which Buddhism swiped from the Hinduism in which it was born. How can the big bang be reconciled with reincarnation?

And here is a question I am dying to hear an answer for: What is deciding whether a person is worthy of being reincarnated as a snake or a Dalit? On what basis does the whatever-is-running things decide which snake deserves to become a bunny, and which person deserves to be a wealthy George Soros?

There isn’t a God, according to Buddhist dogma. Lacking an ultimate truth, God, and an ultimate right and wrong, on what basis does the entity decide anything? Who or what set up this system and and why and who or what keeps running it? And if the universe is being run by a pantheistic entity, why is it so cruel? Thousands and thousands of centuries of plagues and wars and starvation and murders. Please explain.

Can you be happy knowing that those you love as yourself are suffering in hell for eternity?

Buddhism has no explanation for evil, no cure for evil, no basis to decide what is evil, and no desire for justice. I have always found this one of the major problems with Buddhism.

Those who are in hell chose it. It is their decision. To try and drag them into heaven would only harm them more.

has caused no effect in this world. Do you deny it?
Yes I do deny it.

But Rossum, Buddhism is much older than Christianity and yet it has had no positive effect on the world, or almost none. Compare that to Christianity.

A very interesting discussion,

God bless you, Annem