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tonyrey
Guest
Belief in sola scriptura is irrational because the authentic writings in the Bible were selected by the Church founded by Jesus. It is also irrelevant to the topic.
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T
tonyrey
Guest
I have already stated that there is no point in our continuing this discussion, a point further supported by your sola scriptura position.
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tonyrey
Guest
Definition of METASCIENCE: a theory or science of science
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metascience
Value Metascience and Synergistic Choice
calresco.org/cs2000/meta.htm
UNDERSTANDING AND METASCIENCE
robertpriddy.com/bey/2.html
When we practice to deceive: The ethics of a metascientific inquiry
journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6578240
Metascience as a vocation
ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511521515&cid=CBO9780511521515A010
HPS Capstone: Metascience Past, Present and Future - ARTS3300
Faculty: Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
School: School of History and Philosophy
handbook.unsw.edu.au/undergraduate/courses/2011/ARTS3300.html
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da_nolo
Guest
Must is a funny word. however the possibility is still there. acknowledging that order gives to order and therefore universal order may derive from order (God) is sufficient enough for me.
Otherwise the statement is ‘order came from absolute nothingness’. and that appears to have less logical sense than any sort of ‘requirement’ for order => order.
Still human logic is a funny square…limited are we.
Agree that ‘to create’ is not always dependent w/ ‘to design’ since we do not always experience it here on earth. a man may create a car, but he does not need to design it - there are departments. however, isn’t God the ultimate beginning…
Doesn’t God have a plan for us? a plan for the universe? a plan that involves the universe?
Even if He didn’t, there would be some idea towards it.
I must be clear I do not follow, support, believe in creationism - which much of the ‘design’ comes from and is based on and position argued from. I simply lean towards and would suggest there is some sort of ‘design’ to what He has created.
otherwise, the statement may be “God created, but didn’t mean to make it the way it turned out”. which contradicts every explanation to whom God is.
unless there is something horribly missing
in order to make sound judgement on such things, one must look (instead of over look) … at everything. the whole puzzles and pieces to it.
so it is as I said. even disorder/chaos has some order to it.
thank you for this nice conversation. have a nice day
I
inocente
Guest
Oh dear.
You find yet another way to call me irrational and in the same breath manage to disrespect all sola scriptura Christians. That aside, I had said that the one reference to sola scriptura was for future reference so your post is somewhat off-topic.
You also omitted answering my questions. Here’s my post again, this time with my questions highlighted and the future reference part omitted. Please answer my questions, they are both relevant to the thread.
The first is about documentary evidence collected by or written by the Church.
The second is about evidence in scripture and history - for example if belief (or disbelief) in Design was never considered important until (say) the last century we’d expect to find little in the Bible and little before that date in Church archives and Christian writings.
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inocente
Guest
The met agency issued a red weather warning (extreme risk) for today due to high temperatures and we’ve had little option but follow the recommendations and stay indoors, so apologies for posting so much . You’ll be glad to hear I’m now out of here.
. You’ll be glad to hear I’m now out of here.
T
tonyrey
Guest
quote=inocente;9632979]
CCC 379 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s ** plan**, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.
CCC 387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind’s origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognize sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God’s plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to reated persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.
CCC 414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.
CCC 422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'1 This is ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God’:'2 God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own ‘beloved Son’.
CCC 474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal **plans **he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.
CCC Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 Mary “stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new **plan **of salvation is established.”
CCC 502 The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving ** plan **wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.
CCC 521 Christ enables us to live in him all that he himself lived, and he lives it in us. "By his Incarnation, he, the Son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man."193 We are called only to become one with him, for he enables us as the members of his Body to share in what he lived for us in his flesh as our model: **
** God’s Design: A Focus on Old Testament Theology [Paperback] **
** CCC 373 In God’s plan **man and woman have the vocation of “subduing” the earth as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator “who loves everything that exists”, to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them.
CCC 379 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s ** plan**, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.
CCC 387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind’s origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognize sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God’s plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to reated persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.
CCC 414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.
CCC 422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'1 This is ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God’:'2 God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own ‘beloved Son’.
CCC 474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal **plans **he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.
CCC Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 Mary “stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new **plan **of salvation is established.”
CCC 502 The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving ** plan **wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.
CCC 521 Christ enables us to live in him all that he himself lived, and he lives it in us. "By his Incarnation, he, the Son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man."193 We are called only to become one with him, for he enables us as the members of his Body to share in what he lived for us in his flesh as our model: **
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We must continue to accomplish in ourselves the stages of Jesus' life and his mysteries and often to beg him to perfect and realize them in us and in his whole Church. . . For it is the plan **of the Son of God to make us and the whole Church partake in his mysteries and to extend them to and continue them in us and in his whole Church. This is his **plan **for fulfilling his mysteries in us. [Elmer A. Martens](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Elmer%20A.%20Martens&ie=UTF8&search-alias=books&sort=relevancerank)
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levinas12
Guest
We may not be disagreeing as much as you might think.
There is definitely a relationship between the physical particles in our brain (and the rest of our body) and “disclosure”. I would even say that “disclosure” is dependent upon the interaction of these physical particles.
But disclosure itself seems to be different than other “physical” relationships, say, gravitation or the strong force.
Somehow, “disclosure” just happens at a certain level of complexity. But it is more than the physical particles themselves. A new dimension (“truth”) is opened up. Nature has become aware of itself.
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joe370
Guest
And if there is no design then there can be no engineer/maker and therefore no material universe, yet here we are. LOL…
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tonyrey
Guest
Unless the universe happens to be eternal or happens to have made itself! Either way happenstance replaces rational, valuable, purposeful and meaningful existence.
Spiritual development becomes a total illusion…
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rossum
Guest
You are assuming that design/engineering is the only possible cause of the material universe.
What evidence do you have to support that assumption?
rossum
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tonyrey
Guest
- It is unreasonable to believe the universe or anything in the universe is eternal - or has created itself - because there is no evidence that such an event has occurred.
- There is overwhelming evidence that the universe and everything in the universe have been created by a form of energy infinitely more powerful than anything known to science.
- Such immense power is beyond our understanding but it must be purposeful because otherwise it would be an inadequate explanation of purposeful beings.
- The origin of such immense power is beyond our understanding but it is reasonable to believe it is eternal.
- The Source of such immense power is beyond our understanding but it is unreasonable to deny that there is a Source.
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inocente
Guest
The first of those links, the one to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, gave:
metascience - The word you’ve entered isn’t in the dictionary.
As you’ve still not answered my questions, I’m forced to conclude you’re stalling and cannot substantiate your claim.
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inocente
Guest
Everything you posted from the CCC is irrelevant as none of it mentions Design. The book is also irrelevant as it’s not published by the Church (and strange you’d cite a book by a sola scriptura Christian immediately after calling the lot of us irrational).
As you’ve still not answered my questions, I’m forced to conclude that Design with a capital D has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church.
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inocente
Guest
No, you didn’t state anything, you insulted me without reason by calling me irrational (“There’s no point in attempting to have a rational discussion with some one who rejects Design” - your post #122).
And a strange insult, as it seems to rest on the notion that anyone who doesn’t accept your ideas must necessarily be irrational. Even more strange to do it on a thread you called Evidence against Design, as if you’d made up your mind in advance there couldn’t be.
Then you unnecessarily bring up sola scriptura again, totally gratuitously, totally off-topic, as a reminder of your claim that millions of Christians, all over the world, are irrational (your post #158), apparently because you believe the books in the bible don’t belong to everyone, not even the Jews who wrote them.
Yes, it will be a better world without ad hominem.
But all that aside, it’s very disappointing for you to claim there’s something called Design and then refuse to say what it doesn’t and doesn’t apply to. Doubly disappointing that after the long drawn out affair of you being asked to substantiate a claim (types of evidence) which is central to the debate, and after saying you were preparing an answer (post #100), you palm me off.
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tonyrey
Guest
- Since the dawn of history the human race has intuitively recognised the spiritual aspect of reality.
- Materialism is a rare phenomenon in human history.
- Materialists deny the existence of spiritual reality.
- Materialists claim there is no reason why anything exists.
- If there is no reason why anything exists there is no reason for materialism!
- Materialists claim everything is purposeless.
- If everything is purposeless materialism is also purposeless!
- Materialists live as if their lives are purposeful.
- It is impossible for rational beings to live as if their lives are purposeless.
- Therefore materialism does not correspond to reality.
- Purposeful activity cannot be explained by purposeless events.
- Purposeful activity is a fundamental element of reality.
- Rational activity is necessarily purposeful.
- Therefore rational activity is a fundamental element of reality.
- No explanation of reality is adequate unless it accepts rational, purposeful activity as a fundamental element of reality.
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inocente
Guest
Whatcha talking about, there’s no evidence whatsoever for this. The evidence points to the opposite, that all the energy in everything across the whole universe sums to zero.
Energy in all its forms is purely physical so imagining that God is some form of energy, or is the source of that energy, amounts to saying that God is physical.
God creating the universe ex nihilo is untenable unless the total energy at the beginning was zero, since otherwise there must have been some preexisting physical universe from which that energy came.
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tonyrey
Guest
I
inocente
Guest
That sounds like looking for God in the wrong place. After all, it’s also possible there’s a unicorn ridden by a fairy standing behind you right now but the possibility is vanishingly small. Why put your faith on that kind of footing?Must is a funny word. however the possibility is still there. acknowledging that order gives to order and therefore universal order may derive from order (God) is sufficient enough for me.
I can’t see why you think absolute nothingness is disordered. Surely it’s the most orderly state imaginable, since there’s nothing there to be untidy?
I don’t know, it’s easy to get carried away here. What was his plan for the millions who died in the Holocaust? What was his plan for the one child out of every thousand who dies before age five? Why does his plan mean that half of those deaths happen in Africa?
You too.
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