Evidence for a Multiverse?

[Perplexity]

A flat universe means just that. Flat. There is no evidence for any particular shape that would allow ‘flatness’ and hence a finite universe. See here: space.com/34928-the-universe-is-flat-now-what.html

Did you read this article, out of curiosity? I ask because Sutter explicitly confirms what I said. Here are some excerpts from the link (emphasis mine):

"Take out your piece of paper with two parallel lines on it. Go ahead, dig it out of the trash. Wrap one end around to meet the other, making a cylinder. Carefully observe the parallel lines — they remain parallel, don’t they? That’s because cylinders are flat.

You heard it here first: Cylinders are flat.

There’s an important distinction between geometry, the behavior of parallel lines, and topology, the way a space can get all twisted up. While the geometry of the universe is very well measured (again, it’s flat), the topology is not."

…

"With your 2D piece of paper, you can connect the ends a few different ways. Connect one of the dimensions normally and you have a cylinder. Flip one edge over before connecting and you’ve made a Mobius strip. Connect two dimensions, the top to the bottom and one side to the other, and you have a torus (aka a donut).

In our 3D universe, there are lots of options — 18 known ones, to be precise. Mobius strips, Klein bottles and Hantzsche-Wendt space manifolds are all non-trivial topologies that share something in common: if you travel far enough in one direction, you come back to where you started. In the case of flipped dimensions, when you come back to your starting point, you’ll find yourself upside down without having tried to do so at all."

 

[Charlemagne_III]

A flat universe means just that. Flat. There is no evidence for any particular shape that would allow ‘flatness’ and hence a finite universe. See here: space.com/34928-the-universe-is-flat-now-what.html

quora.com/Is-our-universe-finite-or-infinite

If our universe were infinite, would it be possible for other finite or infinite universes to exist?

 

[Bradski]

Did you read this article, out of curiosity? I ask because Sutter explicitly confirms what I said.

The bit that is relevant is this:

“Of course we’ve looked to see if our universe is connected like this; we don’t see any copies of galaxies, and we don’t see the cosmic microwave background intersecting itself. If the universe is pretzeled-up, it’s on scales far, far larger than what we can observe.”

You could have a cylindrical universe (or a few other weird shapes) but there is no evidence for this. So if I may, I’ll clarify what has been previously posted and say: From all available evidence, the universe appears to be infinite to an accuracy of 0.4%.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You could have a cylindrical universe (or a few other weird shapes) but there is no evidence for this. So if I may, I’ll clarify what has been previously posted and say: From all available evidence, the universe appears to be infinite to an accuracy of 0.4%.

Was the universe infinite at the start of the Big Bang?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Was the universe infinite at the start of the Big Bang?

Still waiting for an answer.

 

[Bradski]

Still waiting for an answer.

I am well read in matters of science. I spend a great deal of time and money investigating the esoteric apects of existence. I would hazard a guess that I know a great deal more about the universe and all it entails than your average Joe.

Nevertheless, what I understand about it all you could probably write on a table napkin. What I would also hazard to guess is that you understand considerably less than I do.

If you want to understand more, then I would suggest that I am not the person to whom you should turn for your education.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I am well read in matters of science. I spend a great deal of time and money investigating the esoteric apects of existence. I would hazard a guess that I know a great deal more about the universe and all it entails than your average Joe.

Nevertheless, what I understand about it all you could probably write on a table napkin. What I would also hazard to guess is that you understand considerably less than I do.

If you want to understand more, then I would suggest that I am not the person to whom you should turn for your education.

Thanks for your generous remarks!

 

[STT]

Was the universe infinite at the start of the Big Bang?

Yes, it was. Did you read my argument?

 

[Faith1960]

We all know the universe exists. Some people offer the hypothetical that many universes could co-exist. What concrete proof is there for a multiverse?

Has our universe ever bumped into another one?

IF there is a multiverse, does that contradict our faith or negatively effect our faith in any way?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yes, it was. Did you read my argument?

Your argument did not prove that the universe was infinite at the start of the Big Bang.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

IF there is a multiverse, does that contradict our faith or negatively effect our faith in any way?

It would not contradict my faith at all. It would raise questions as to why all those other universes were created if we are the only one among them that God came to visit in the person of Jesus Christ.

Multiverse would support the faith the atheist has that there is no God, because with infinite universes (which a multiverse literally has to be) anything is infinitely possible, including a universe that appears to be designed but really isn’t.

Of course, that means the atheist has to rely not on science (science cannot prove there is an infinity of universes - impossible) but rather on sheer unadulterated speculation.

Debating how many universes there are is suspiciously as comical as the atheist taunt that Medieval theologians liked to debate (which they never did) how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.

 

[Bradski]

Charlemagne III;146750p84:

It would not contradict my faith at all. It would raise questions as to why all those other universes were created if we are the only one among them that God came to visit in the person of Jesus Christ.

I agree. It seems nonsensical to have parts of existence that we cannot access and to all intents do not exist.

 

[Lion_IRC]

…Multiverse would support the faith the atheist has that there is no God, because with infinite universes (which a multiverse literally has to be) anything is infinitely possible, including a universe that appears to be designed but really isn’t.

LOL
No.

Increasing the number of possible worlds makes it MORE likely that one of them actually is designed. And MORE likely that there is a realm where miracles happen and where supernatural events occur and where a couple of humans defied their Creator and ate forbidden fruit.

This doesn’t help atheism one bit.

Every time I hear talk about multiverse I’m reminded of this amazing book.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

LOLIncreasing the number of possible worlds makes it MORE likely that one of them actually is designed. And MORE likely that there is a realm where miracles happen and where supernatural events occur and where a couple of humans defied their Creator and ate forbidden fruit.

This doesn’t help atheism one bit.

I agree that it doesn’t help them one bit, but they think it does.

If they think one universe is nonsense, they must think an infinity of universes is nonsense run amuck.

 

[STT]

Your argument did not prove that the universe was infinite at the start of the Big Bang.

It applies to all stage of universe. Any finite volume is bounded with something, lets call it boundary. If boundary is not infinite then itself is bounded with something else. etc. This leads to infinite regress therefore the original volume must be infinite.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It applies to all stage of universe. Any finite volume is bounded with something, lets call it boundary. If boundary is not infinite then itself is bounded with something else. etc. This leads to infinite regress therefore the original volume must be infinite.

If your universe is infinite, it must also be eternal, for there would be no way for it to begin and expand.

But the Big Bang shows the universe and time began, and the universe is expanding.

So the universe cannot be either eternal or infinite.

The proponents of an atheistic universe need an infinite universe to exist.

Your atheistic philosophy is getting in the way of your physics.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

 

[inocente]

Increasing the number of possible worlds makes it MORE likely that one of them actually is designed. And MORE likely that there is a realm where miracles happen and where supernatural events occur and where a couple of humans defied their Creator and ate forbidden fruit.

:ehh: You just proved that your intelligent designer is contingent, and therefore cannot be God. I’m thinking maybe you didn’t want to do that.

If even just one possible world came about naturally and without any design, then your intelligent designer did not need to exist in order for that world to exist. Therefore your intelligent designer cannot be logically necessary in all possible worlds. Therefore your intelligent designer cannot be the God of the bible.

In order to prove the God of the bible, you would need to prove that every possible world is contingent on the existence of God, by proving that out of the infinite number of possible worlds, none of them, not even one of them, could exist without God.

The expert on this stuff is Alvin Plantinga.

 

[STT]

If your universe is infinite, it must also be eternal, for there would be no way for it to begin and expand.

But the Big Bang shows the universe and time began, and the universe is expanding.

So the universe cannot be either eternal or infinite.

The proponents of an atheistic universe need an infinite universe to exist.

No, universe can be infinite and expand. Infinity+infinity=infinity. Moreover universe can have a starting and be infinite. Think of a infinite vertical line, the universe, which moves along horizontal time axis from zero to current time.

Your atheistic philosophy is getting in the way of your physics.

I am open to concept of God.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

Interesting.

 

[inocente]

If your universe is infinite, it must also be eternal, for there would be no way for it to begin and expand.

But the Big Bang shows the universe and time began, and the universe is expanding.

So the universe cannot be either eternal or infinite.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

Your bible literalism combined with your unquestioning faith in an old TV show is touching.

However:

“The hot Big Bang might mark the beginning of the observable Universe as we know it, but it doesn’t mark the birth of space and time itself. Before the Big Bang, the Universe underwent a period of cosmic inflation.” - forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/11/05/ask-ethan-could-the-universe-be-infinite/#697dd70f5b03

I don’t know the detail but it seems that period could have been infinitely long.

 

[Lion_IRC]

:ehh: You just proved that your intelligent designer is contingent, and therefore cannot be God.

I did?

Where in my post did I say that the Creator needs a Creator?

…If even just one possible world came about naturally and without any design, then your intelligent designer did not need to exist in order for that world to exist.

You’re making up stuff .
Where did I say that a possible world came about without a capital “c” Creator?

Therefore your intelligent designer cannot be logically necessary in all possible worlds.

Are you mistaking me for someone else?
You’re refuting a view which I don’t hold.

Therefore your intelligent designer cannot be the God of the bible./

My intelligent designer is exactly

The God I worship doesn’t need to be proved. He exists whether or not people believe.

The expert on this stuff is Alvin Plantinga.

He is an expert. Not THE expert.