Evidence for Catholicism and the Scriptures

[De_Maria]

Before I criticize this statement, I would like to make sure I understand what you are trying to say. Could you explain it more and provide evidence for your assertion please.

I do speak for myself. I also was a former atheist. I have absolutely no idea why I believe in God. I just do. I happen to worship within the catholic church for reasons I won’t go into here. Faith is the most important thing I have. However, I understand that faith is exactly that. As a form of epistemology it is extremely subjective.

The “evidence” you like to quote wouldn’t convince most scientific and empirically minded atheists. It didn’t convince me. The sort of “evidence” you have provided had no effect on me when I was an atheist. Faith is a matter of grace IMHO. I don’t believe that those without faith are any worse off than those with faith as long as they live their lives well. I was the same person prior to my conversion that I am now, except I believe in something that can’t be proven. Perhaps I am crazy, I am willing to accept this!!!

You claim Muhammed didn’t speak with the angel Gabriel. Were he here today he couldn’t prove it to you anymore than you could prove that he didn’t. Catholics believe that Mary spoke to Gabriel. Same situation. Totally unprovable either way.

For me, faith is a simple matter of living with the tension of not knowing for sure. I think it is this simple dimesion of trust that is the most rewarding. Please be charitable and allow this dimesion to people of other faiths. Fighting about who is really real, Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, does nothing but create strife. For all we know in an objective manner, we are all deluded. That is why it is called faith.

There is a story about a rabbi who was once asked by a disciple about heretics such as atheists. The rabbi said that heresy is very powerful and can be a good thing. When someone is confronted by someone in need, the believer should act as though God doesn’t exist and take it upon themselves to provide and care for that person as though they were God. I have butchered this story but provided the essence.

I’ll be right back, Peregrino. Just wanted to start the thread.

 

[De_Maria]

Peregrino:

Before I criticize this statement, I would like to make sure I understand what you are trying to say. Could you explain it more and provide evidence for your assertion please.

Sure.

I said:
*In addition, the various Scripture manuscripts from various countries have all been substantiated to within 99% accuracy.
*
In response to your skeptical statement:
The church takes it upon itself to do a great many things. It is also a matter of faith that these things conform to the wishes of Jesus….

So there is two prong question here:

1. Was the Apostolic Church truthful? Apparently you believe they were, since the part of my answer which you didn’t question had to do with the first Christians dying for what they believed. And what they believed is contained in the Bible, correct?
2. Was the message of Jesus passed on faithfully? This is the part which you seem to question.

Now all that needs to be proved, is that the Bible which the Apostolic Church put together contains the same information which we have in our Bibles today. Correct?

Is there any atheist or skeptic which claims that the Bible today does not contain the same message as the Bible compiled by the Early Church? Can they prove their claim?

On the other hand, we can prove from the earliest manuscripts that the message is faithful throughout the centuries:

These are Protestant sites:
home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html

godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.html

This is Catholic:
catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6336

I do speak for myself. I also was a former atheist. I have absolutely no idea why I believe in God. I just do. I happen to worship within the catholic church for reasons I won’t go into here. Faith is the most important thing I have. However, I understand that faith is exactly that. As a form of epistemology it is extremely subjective.

What is faith, in your opinion?

To me, there are two types of faith. One is to believe that which one can’t see. Two is to trust someone whom one loves or believes because that person has proven trustworthy.

Now I believe in God although I’ve not seen Him. I have that type of faith.

But I also believe in God because I trust Him. I have seen His Providence at work in my life and He has been good to me.

Obviously I see the Catholic Church and Her Ministers, so I believe they exist because I actually see them.

But I also have faith in the Catholic Church because Her Teachings are good and salutory for my well being.

So, if you only have the type of faith where you believe that God exists but have no reason to believe that God exists, then you must move from there to a position of trust in God and from there to a position of loving God.

The “evidence” you like to quote wouldn’t convince most scientific and empirically minded atheists.

For some, no evidence is necessary, for others, no evidence is enough.

It didn’t convince me.

Everyone takes a different road to God. We are all individuals. Its good that you are now in God’s hands and that you believe in Him. Now its time to look into yourself and say, “why do I believe?” “Why should I believe?”

If the testimony of the Catholic Church does not convince you, then I would be the last one to hold you to it. But I have checked and in my opinion, if the Catholic Church is not true, then none of the others are true either.

The sort of “evidence” you have provided had no effect on me when I was an atheist. Faith is a matter of grace IMHO.

That is absolutely true. The fact is that one day, I saw the evidence which convinced me that God did not exist and suddenly I realized that this very same evidence proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that God did exist. Before I even knew these words were in Scripture, they convinced me of God’s existence, “I am beautifully and wonderfully made”. One day I looked at an object that I had seen day in and day out, my hand and I realized that none but God could produce it. That is how my search for evidence began. But it was inspired by my wife’s conceiving of our first child. Another event which I suddenly realized could only be of Divine intervention. The miracle of life.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

I don’t believe that those without faith are any worse off than those with faith as long as they live their lives well. I was the same person prior to my conversion that I am now, except I believe in something that can’t be proven. Perhaps I am crazy, I am willing to accept this!!!

No, you’re inspired. Now take the next step. God brought you here for a reason. The first commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul and MIND.

You claim Muhammed didn’t speak with the angel Gabriel.

Well, lets get the facts straight first. The angel who supposedly talked to Muhammed is named Gibreel. What’s the difference? Gibreel means “breath of God” in Arabic. That is why Muslims frequently call that same being the Holy Spirit. “Spirit” of course, comes from the Hebrew word for “breath”.

Gabriel means the “Power of God”. The Angel Gabriel is the one who spoke to Mary and Joseph.

And lets be precise. My claim is that Mohammed can’t prove he spoke to an angel. The reason being that they claim their evidence for the Quran is superior to Christian evidence for Christ. But that assumption falls flat on its face when we consider that:

1. No one saw the angel but Mohammed. While the life and actions of Jesus Christ had many witnesses and corroborating testimonies.
2. The original writings of the Quran were burnt by Muslims. All originals of the Scriptures were painstakingly preserved by Christians but some have been lost to the ravages of time. Even so, many manuscripts remain which attest to the faithful copying and transmission throughout the centuries.

Were he here today he couldn’t prove it to you anymore than you could prove that he didn’t. Catholics believe that Mary spoke to Gabriel. Same situation. Totally unprovable either way.

True. It would be Mary’s word against the world. But then Mary gave birth to Jesus whose actions are attested and witnessed. So, if we don’t believe Mary, do we believe Jesus?

For me, faith is a simple matter of living with the tension of not knowing for sure. I think it is this simple dimesion of trust that is the most rewarding. Please be charitable and allow this dimesion to people of other faiths. Fighting about who is really real, Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, does nothing but create strife. For all we know in an objective manner, we are all deluded. That is why it is called faith.

I guess you haven’t discussed religion with Muslims before:

1. Muslims believe that religious discussions are a form of Jihad or war.
   islambyquestions.net/jihad/meaning.htm

In this situation, they believe in lying and deceiving to bring you to agreeement with them.
islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

1. By permitting them to continue in believing the falsehoods of Muhammad, I believe I would be doing them a grave injustice. God wills that all come to the knowledge of truth. If they wish to remain in darkness after they have been shown the light, that is their business.

There is a story about a rabbi who was once asked by a disciple about heretics such as atheists. The rabbi said that heresy is very powerful and can be a good thing. When someone is confronted by someone in need, the believer should act as though God doesn’t exist and take it upon themselves to provide and care for that person as though they were God. I have butchered this story but provided the essence.

Its a good point. I have been talking to Muslims for about twenty years. I have found that, in gerneral, they have little patience for differing opinions. Their conversation starts out very politely, but when they encounter a question they can’t answer, they become insulting. Very few have been exceptions to that rule.

So, although I began like the Rabbi, trying to be kind to them, I found that I got more and better results when I addressed them the way they address me. They seem to have more respect for a head on, apples to apples approach.

Sincerely,

De Maria