Evidence for Design?

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Descartes, however, was an idiot.
Free will - which is essential for Design - infringes the law of conservation of (physical) energy.
Dualism refers to two natures such as the rational [spiritual soul] and the corporeal [anatomy made of matter]. The philosophers following Descartes emphasized the difference to the point of actual philosophical separation. Eventually, the rational/spiritual principle was eliminated leaving materialism as the basis of human life.
I vaguely remember a previous thread where (most) Catholic posters said Descartes’ substance dualism is nothing like Thomas and the Church. It seems to me that Thomas is more a property dualist who, simply and sanely, says that the properties of minds cannot be reduced to matter, thus avoiding the rather superficial folk myths of supernatural thingamajigs.

Emergence theory, while not dualist as such, also says that the properties of mind cannot simply be reduced to physics. But keep that similarity to yourself, as it undermines some posters’ war on science and the blindingly obvious, and I for one would miss the fun of hearing their earnestly weird theories. 😃

(Incidentally tony, conservation of energy only applies to a closed system, and the human body is not a closed system).
 
I vaguely remember a previous thread where (most) Catholic posters said Descartes’ substance dualism is nothing like Thomas and the Church. It seems to me that Thomas is more a property dualist who, simply and sanely, says that the properties of minds cannot be reduced to matter, thus avoiding the rather superficial folk myths of supernatural thingamajigs.
Catholicism is not like a dualist who, simply and sanely, says that the properties of minds cannot be reduced to matter. Though I can understand that concept which comes from a non-dualism position, i.e., that human nature is only material/physical.

This reminds me that I finally figured out a kind of answer to your comments about actualities and potentialities in regard to the spiritual soul. (Is my memory close to being accurate?) While this is Thomistic philosophy, the nitty-gritty is that the American population under the age of 59 or so, is not familiar with scholastic philosophy (method) and certainly actual and potential are not every day terms in their vocabulary. There are a few posters who quote from Aquinas, but that does not mean that everyone is really understanding how to use philosophical terminology. Thus, it is no wonder that you were concerned about the response.

The Catholic use of “dualism” in comparison with the popular understanding of dualism is that yes, the spiritual soul and the anatomy made of matter are completely different natures in reality. Cartesian extreme dualism is that these two natures are separated in humans. Doesn’t either Descartes or a follower locate the spiritual in some kind of gland – or is that an urban myth?

Locating the spiritual in a bit of anatomy is actually separating its influence from the anatomy as a whole. This is similar to the mind emerging from the material brain. Both Descartes and some interpreters of science are actually eliminating the complete union of spiritual and material in a person. Catholicism teaches is that it is the union per se which results in one single human nature.

Looking at the Design of a human person, one can say that Descartes’ view of different natures, spirit and matter, does describe the human species. However, Catholicism holds that the two natures are not separate because they are an unique unification which results in one person with a single nature. Therefore, Catholism can say that it is possible for moderate dualism to describe human natures.

One normally does not hear the term moderate dualism on CAF because most, not all, Catholics have enough problems with the spiritual soul and modern biology and genetics.

What is amazing is how the little used term moderate dualism plays out in the Design of the person.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
Where would we be today if, throughout history, every time we were faced with a phenomenen that we didn’t understand, we just inserted a convenient supernatural explanation and stopped thinking about it?
I am not sure who your “we didn’t understand” refers to.😉

But I am only dealing with one extraordinary phenomenon, the human person.👍

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
Why do think it isn’t a closed system?
The principle applies to a system which is so well sealed and isolated from everything else that no energy can leave or enter it from the outside, but the human body takes in and emits energy in a whole bunch of ways, for instance your exhaled breath is warmer than the inhaled air was, your body continuously emits infra-red light (think of those cameras the cops use on helicopters to see suspects glowing in the dark), and so on.
 
Catholicism is not like a dualist who, simply and sanely, says that the properties of minds cannot be reduced to matter. Though I can understand that concept which comes from a non-dualism position, i.e., that human nature is only material/physical.

…] Looking at the Design of a human person, one can say that Descartes’ view of different natures, spirit and matter, does describe the human species. However, Catholicism holds that the two natures are not separate because they are an unique unification which results in one person with a single nature. Therefore, Catholism can say that it is possible for moderate dualism to describe human natures.
Au contraire, methinks you’re playing with semantics. 🙂

The award for which is moderate and which is extreme would, I think, depend on who is making the statement. But there are only three kinds of dualism – substance, property and predicate - so the Church must follow one of them. It would be good to hear which.

Here are two reasons why I say Catholicism follows the property dualist school:
  1. If spirit and matter are a “unique unification which results in one person with a single nature” then logically they must be different expressions of the same underlying thing in order to form a unity, and the CCC doesn’t say the soul is a different substance from the body, it says the soul is the “form” of the body.
  2. You linked Stanford at me the other day, I’ll return the favor, tell me whether this description of Aristotle (who we know Thomas followed) rings a bell:
Aristotle did not believe in Platonic Forms, existing independently of their instances. Aristotelian forms (the capital ‘F’ has disappeared with their standing as autonomous entities) are the natures and properties of things and exist embodied in those things. This enabled Aristotle to explain the union of body and soul by saying that the soul is the form of the body. This means that a particular person’s soul is no more than his nature as a human being. - plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/#AriArgModFor

There you go - the exact same words, the exact same concept as Catholicism.

One rests one’s case (for today at least).
 
The principle applies to a system which is so well sealed and isolated from everything else that no energy can leave or enter it from the outside, but the human body takes in and emits energy in a whole bunch of ways, for instance your exhaled breath is warmer than the inhaled air was, your body continuously emits infra-red light (think of those cameras the cops use on helicopters to see suspects glowing in the dark), and so on.
I don’t think science recognises free will, let alone allocates physical energy for that purpose! Free will would also seem to infringe the laws of nature…
 
Granny underlined an entire sentence. She understood - we PM each other.

Call that shouting? :rolleyes: 😃

N O W
T H I S
http://s.ngm.com/afghan-girl/images/afghan-girl-615.jpg

I S
S H O U T I N G !
! ! ! ! ! !

photo - Afghan Girl, National Geographic, Steve McCurry
In my defense I was trying to conserve space. NOW THIS IS ABOUT AS SHOUTING AS I CAN BE ON THIS FORUM!!!(I don’t know how to put photos into posts but I’m learning from looking at quotes). Unless CAF allows larger fonts we’re stuck here. Wow - the eyes of the woman in the photo really seem to pierce me somehow - it’s kinda creepy. I tried to add more exclamation points (like about 50) and it got all weird - the photo disappeared along with my draft so I couldn’t make any changes. So I had to delete the extra exclamation points. 😦

I think we have reached the pinnacle of shouting on CAF. I declare a draw. Thanks for the clarification about Granny; as she did not state that she was not shouting at you I am going to accept your claim that you would know. I’d know, too, because we also PM each other. She is remarkably charitable and so I can understand why her action of underlining a sentence could be taken as shouting. For me it would just be emphasis.

😃
 
This thread is now closed as it is well over the advised 1000 post limit for threads.

Please feel free to begin a new thread with charity.

God bless
 
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