Evidence for Evolution

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The “truth”? The constant, you-gotta-believe-it-or-we’ll-keep-repeating-it-until-you-do?

Nope. That’s not what you’re selling. What you’re selling is the 2nd Enlightenment, the we’ll-get-religion-out-of-our-hair-for-good-this-time.

No sale here.

Peace,
Ed
 
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP: Human Persons Created in the Image of God

Vatican Statement on Creation and Evolution

bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that** there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith**. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe. Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms.
 
And on page 25 of this creation-evolution thread, I’ll butt in and give a plug for this new Prothero book:

Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters by Donald Prothero (Columbia Univ Press, 2007)

Creationists and IDers take a beating in this book. I might use this to update my Evidence for Evolution pages since it contains the most up-to-date evidence from the fossil record by a professional geologist / paleontologist. It is back to $30 but last week you could get it from Amazon for $23 so keep looking. It is a hardback, coffee table size book with lots of pictures.

Phil P
 
The Barbarbarian, PhilVaz and others are primarily interested in “who gets a beating.” That is not how the Catholic Church interprets the evidence, and no secular text contains the complete, whole answer: Divine providence.

God bless,
Ed
 
The Barbarbarian, PhilVaz and others are primarily interested in “who gets a beating.”
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The truth counts, Ed. It should count for you, too.
 
The word ‘science’ does not equal evolution. I have a background in electronics and chemistry, neither of which require evolution, so please stop this nonsense of evolution = science. It’s not true.

Science is incomplete. Pope Benedict stated that it unnecessarily limits our understanding. Was he trashing science? Were the writers of Human Persons Created in the Image of God trashing science when they wrote that evolution without divine providence was impossible? A point that is missing from biology textbooks. Did Pope John Paul II trash science when he called it incompatible with the Catholic faith that man is reducible to pure chance and necessity? Did Cardinal Schoenborn not say that the Catholic Church, at this time, finds itself in the position of having to defend reason itself?

God bless,
Ed
 
The word ‘science’ does not equal evolution. I have a background in electronics and chemistry, neither of which require evolution,
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However, evolution is supported by evidence from chemistry. If evolution is false, so is chemistry (and physics, and geology, and many other sciences)
Pope Benedict stated that it unnecessarily limits our understanding.
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No. It can only limit our understanding, if we try to use it to find God. That is not what it is for.
 
edwest2 said:
Divine providence is why we are all here.

God bless,
Ed
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Of course it is, Ed, but when we fly in the face of reason by refusing to acknowledge what has been discovered by scientists, using the faculties God gave them (whether some of them realize it or not!) we do great harm and invite ridicule of Catholicism. To quote Thomas Aquinas:

"The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."

I went to a wonderful talk the other night, put on by our very conservative local Catholic high school which sponsors a series on “Faith and Science”. The speaker was a very orthodox Catholic professor from a small college near New Orleans, who spoke about paleontology, and the possible point at which Adam was created, tackled the thorny issues of with whom the children of Adam and Eve procreated - very thought-provoking. He also referred to the fact that even the very conservative Pope Pius XII, in Humanii Generis, said this:

*“The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” *

That’s pretty much it, in a nutshell; as long as we believe in ensoulment by God, the process by which He created us shouldn’t cause us to get our knickers in a twist. I just do not understand why this causes good Catholics so much grief.

As was also discussed the other evening, one major reason why some Catholics reject the possibility of evolution is the fact that many scientists are atheist or agnostic, and some people figure that, if evolution is what they promote, then it must be false! That is very much along the lines of “cutting off our noses to spite our faces.” I’m afraid that’s what many Catholics (and other Christians) do.
 
The Church does not require me to believe in evolution. As a Catholic, I cannot believe in atheistic evolution.

God bless,
Ed
 
In “spite” of what I’m hearing on the evolutionary side of this debate, I’m still behind what is taught in Genesis, where it clearly stated God “created”, it could easily have been worded to accomodate evolution with a few simple changes in wording, but clearly it does not. This concept itself is a test of our faith, nothing more.
 
edwest2 said:
The Church does not require me to believe in evolution. As a Catholic, I cannot believe in atheistic evolution.

God bless,
Ed
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Of course you cannot. None of us who is Catholic can believe in “atheistic” evolution. I certainly do not. I simply look at it as the method God chose to let His creation unfold, in His own good time.

I certainly understand how one could react strongly and negatively to those scientists who embrace evolution as a Godless process. But, throwing out the baby with the bathwater doesn’t get us anywhere. Evolution= “God’s modus operandi”, to quote a young biologist dear to me.
 
A quote from a young biologist is not the same as Church teaching, an important part of which is missing from biology textbooks.

Peace,
Ed
 
In “spite” of what I’m hearing on the evolutionary side of this debate, I’m still behind what is taught in Genesis, where it clearly stated God “created”,
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Created, not designed. The only difference between your position, and that of the Church, is that the Church is OK with the way He created things.
it could easily have been worded to accomodate evolution with a few simple changes in wording, but clearly it does not.
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It could easily have been worded to accomodate mitosis with a few simple changes in wording, but it clearly does not. The Bible is not a science textbook, and those who attempt to make it so, will be continously led away from the Church.
 
Brian_Millar said:
In “spite” of what I’m hearing on the evolutionary side of this debate, I’m still behind what is taught in Genesis, where it clearly stated God “created”, it could easily have been worded to accomodate evolution with a few simple changes in wording, but clearly it does not. This concept itself is a test of our faith, nothing more.
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Brian, Genesis doesn’t include “gravity,” “plate tectonics,” “cell theory,” “nucleosynthesis,” “speed of light,” or “subatomic particle.” Are these therefore satanic concepts developed by scientists to test our faith?

P
 
What is important, it clearly states, the rest, we are pretty much on our own.
 
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