Evidence for Evolution

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I have already addressed the idea of mutation which was attempted in the laboratory fifty years ago by exposing fruit flies to radiation. The mutations were anything but beneficial.
Uh… yeah. I would expect so.
That’s what happens with radiation, especially overexposure to radiation.
Why is it that evolutionists’ ideas are opposed to what we see in nature?
They’re not. talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html

When was the last time you saw animals being exposed to high-level radiation in nature??
 
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Michael:
Stein and the movie’s producers are hopeful Expelled will spark more freedom when it comes to teaching about the origins of life.
More freedom? That’s what scientific investigation is already about. Stein is not a scientist; he has not published in scientific journals; he has not delivered papers at conferences. He has no idea what he’s talking about, beyond reciting a script. If he wanted to convince the educated public, he should come up with some evidence that people have been deprived of freedom to propose scientific ideas.
 
Why would a designer use specifically an ERV for this purpose?

You don’t know it yet, that’s for God to know for now, he has a plan you know.
That’s the desperation creationist “explanation”. One can always special plead out of any difficulty. You of course never accept such argumentation in favor of evolution; there the difficulties are always real and insoluble.
It can shown that this is strong evidence for common descent by comparing the likelihood of the data among the various models.
Yeah, they are called Adam and Eve, thank you for this insight, I have a book that explains it, it’s called the Bible…
IOW, you don’t have a good refutation for the claim. Or are you saying apes are also descended from Adam and Eve?
According to modern reason and knowledge, inbreeding produces counterproductive offspring, thus all life evolving from a single celled creature has no chance at effective procreation,
Maybe there is a way, you just don’t know it yet. See two can play the special pleading game.
yet with divine creation, that obstical can be overcame since the creator has already thought of that, put his design into place from the beginning and did it in a way that is not permanent trait wise carried on to all generations… End of story…
See, so there you go. All life evolving from a single celled creature can occur if the creator put that design in place from the beginning. Obstacle overcome, end of story.
 
More freedom? That’s what scientific investigation is already about. Stein is not a scientist; he has not published in scientific journals; he has not delivered papers at conferences. He has no idea what he’s talking about, beyond reciting a script. If he wanted to convince the educated public, he should come up with some evidence that people have been deprived of freedom to propose scientific ideas.
He has convinced a very large audience to watch the film – that’s a very good first step. Expelled finished the weekend in the top ten for feature films – having only been offered in half the number of theaters as the rest of the top ten.

Many people who have seen the film have remarked that they learned much that was new. The interviews with evolutionary-atheists were eye-opening to many also (as I’ve seen from commentaries on blogs).
 
A movie opening in theaters nationwide today examines how educators and scientists are being ridiculed, denied tenure, and even fired for questioning Darwinism.
Tell us about those. I suspect you don’t know Stein wasn’t exactly honest about those. Pick some and we’ll see what we can turn up.
The movie is called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed and stars Ben Stein. Filmed in documentary style, Expelled shows the viewer how the debate about the origin of life is one-sided on college campuses and academic institutions worldwide.
The debate on a flat Earth, very one-sided, too. For the same reasons.
Also featured in the documentary are professors on both sides of the issue – those who have been blacklisted because they question Darwinism
You’re a bit too gullible. Give me a name and we’ll see what we can find out. I promise you’re going to be surprised. I lived in the era of blacklisting when people’s lives were ruined, and their careers were gone for nothing. It’s infuriating that the people who supported that kind of thing (Stein, as you might know, was a speechwriter for one of the great McCarthyites, Richard Nixon) are now accusing other of their own sins.
and those who defend evolution and refuse to believe that the universe could have been brought about by an intelligent being
Most people who accept evolution are theists.

According to Gallup, theistic evolutionists outnumber atheistic evolutionists by over 4 to 1. And evolutionists outnumber creationists 49 to 44 percent.

religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

Ironically, the number hasn’t changed much; in 1991, evolutionists outnumbered creationists 49 to 47. The slow erosion of creationist opinion is encouraging, but there are generations of change at this rate. The point remains; these guys are willing to lie to sell their story.

I know you just copied it from the film, but it’s one of the more egregious lies they tell.
Stein, who is a former presidential speechwriter, actor, and author, finds it amazing that many of the intellectual elite allow no dissent from Darwin’s theory of random mutation and natural selection.
If he said so, he’s a liar or an idiot. The postmodernists detest evolution, because it supposes an objective reality.
“The intelligentsia said at a certain point that Adolf Hitler was the wave of the future, and so the intelligentsia is often wrong and in fact I’d say they’re wrong at least as often as they’re right,”
The “intelligentsia,” then as now, were largely leftist; they struggled against Hitler, and most of them were shot or sent to the camps, or fled the country. It’s hard to say whether Stein actually believes it, or is just using old material from the McCarthy days.
explains Stein. “We aim to show that they’re wrong again. You know what else? We’re sick of being pushed around by the intelligentsia.”
Yeah, let’s show them intelligentsias. You know, if you spent your life as a couch potato, and then stepped into the ring with a trained fighter, no one would have a lot of sympathy for you. But Stein figures it’s unfair that scholars have thumped him over science. I guess that’s what he means by “no intelligence allowed.”
According to Stein, Darwinism played a role in the Holocaust as the social elite of that time used Darwinian principles to justify purging society of “inferior” races.
Funny that Luther used Christian theology to advocate the same thing. And that Darwin vigorously opposed such ideas. But Stein wrote speeches for a guy who didn’t.
He also warns that in today’s culture, Darwinism is continuing to have a negative impact on social and moral issues.
If that were true, scientists and their families would be more inclined to crime and other misbehavior than others. And just the opposite is true.
the movie’s producers are hopeful Expelled will spark more freedom when it comes to teaching about the origins of life.
If so, when do you think they will get the Institute for Creation Research to accept graduate students who don’t accept creationism? Or when will they allow scientists who don’t buy the party line, in the Discovery Institute?

During the Cold War, the Soviets were all for complete freedom of expression. In the United States. But there was quite another policy where they held power.

So it seems with Stein and Co.
 
He has convinced a very large audience to watch the film – that’s a very good first step…
Many people who have seen the film have remarked that they learned much that was new. The interviews with evolutionary-atheists were eye-opening to many also (as I’ve seen from commentaries on blogs).
If you’ll review my post, I said that he hasn’t convinced the educated public, not the public in general. Convincing people who have no idea what science is or how it works is not relevant. The claims in the six cases in question have all been shown to be essentially false. See http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth
 
Not at all – there is a rich array of both fossil and genetic evidence in support of evolution.
Show me the fossil evidence. A single celled organism is very complex, just looking at external simularities is too simplistic. The burden of proof is on evolution.

Don’t just believe something because everyone else believes it.
 
Steve, would you be willing to put your assumption to a test? If you like, we can examine the evidence, and see if it’s true.
I make no assumption. I do not see proof of evolution. I see assumptions that the evidence points to it being true but these assumption are not logical with regard to proof.

Empirical evidence is based upon obserability and repeatability. Evidence for evolution is neither obserable or repeatable in it’s ability to prove one kind can transform into another.

Put your assumptions to the test and think critically and logically. Don’t just accept what main stream scientists say. Think for your self.
 
Show me the fossil evidence. A single celled organism is very complex, just looking at external simularities is too simplistic. The burden of proof is on evolution.

Don’t just believe something because everyone else believes it.
I had pointed out earlier in this thread that the complimentarity between the genders of any given species is so intrinsic to a species survival that any deviation between genders (as one would suspect would happen through the progressive changes of evolution) would be lethal to further propagation of that species. Still awaiting evolutionists explanation on that as well.
 
A movie opening in theaters nationwide today examines how educators and scientists are being ridiculed, denied tenure, and even fired for questioning Darwinism.
‘Expelled’ is as about as unbiased a source as a Michael Moore movie. Notice that they do not interview any religious scientists, such as the Catholic biologist Ken Miller. That would only confuse their message wouldn’t it.

I have not seen the movie as it has not been released in the UK yet. However I understand that it covers the Sternberg case and the Gonzales case. Does it tell you that Stermberg still hss his position at the Smithsonian, and that it was renewed for another three years in 2006? Does it tell you the Gonzalez gained $200,000 in grant money while the average for the department was $1,300,000? Getting in the grant money is one of the requirements for tenure - tenure is far from automatic. For more details of the terminological inexactitudes in the movie see Expelled Exposed.
Also featured in the documentary are professors on both sides of the issue – those who have been blacklisted because they question Darwinism, and those who defend evolution and refuse to believe that the universe could have been brought about by an intelligent being.
And carefully omitting (or is that “expelling”?) those who defend evolution and believe that the universe was created by God. That would only confuse their propaganda message.
According to Stein, Darwinism played a role in the Holocaust as the social elite of that time used Darwinian principles to justify purging society of “inferior” races. He also warns that in today’s culture, Darwinism is continuing to have a negative impact on social and moral issues.
The Argumentum ad Hitlerum is logically incorrect: “The Nazis used chemistry to make Zyklon-B gas, hence chemistry is morally wrong and should not be taught in schools.” Hitler was no more a biologist than he was a theologian, he misused both Darwin and Christianity to try to justify his racist bigotry. For example:“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.”

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
Should we stop beliving the Bible because Hitler misused it to justify his hatred of the Jews? That is what Ben Stein’s argument would have you do.
Stein and the movie’s producers are hopeful Expelled will spark more freedom when it comes to teaching about the origins of life.
Intelligent Design can say nothing about the origin of life - just ask yourself the question: “is the designer itself alive?” It may have something to say about the origin of life on earth, but if it is to do that it is going to have to produce some positive evidence, not just attacks on evolution. The default scientific position is “we do not know”. Even if evolution collapsed tomorrow ID would still have to produce positive evidence for design.

rossum
 
Just to help clear things up…
From the Baltimore Catechism**:**

Q. 133. What is man?
A. Man is a creature composed of body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God.

Q. 136. Is this likeness in the body or in the soul?
A. This likeness is chiefly in the soul.

Q. 137. How is the soul like to God?
A. The soul is like to God because it is a spirit that will never die, and has understanding and free will.
And there it is. It is noted that image and likeness are not limited to the soul.
Individuals
don’t evolve. Evolution happens on the scale of a species (or a part of a species) as a whole, not on the individual level.*If evolution doesn’t happen in individuals, how much more ludicrous to believe it happens in the masses.
Perhaps you’d like to answer this: We are all descended from Adam and Eve, yes? What color was their skin?
Who knows?
More than one color?
Probably not, but again who knows?
Because obviously we have many many different shades of native skin color today, which just so happen to vary according to the climate of the individual region.
All skin is capable of being any shade of skin color. This does not mean skin evolves different colors. You also make the assumption that living in certain areas caused dark skin rather people of like colored skin tended to congregate together in certain regions. You have to eliminate that possibility before one can purport evolution as fact.
There’s a very good reason that Africans have black skin, and an equally good reason that skin shades grow lighter as you move further away from the equator.
Yes because people with darker skin could handle the sun better and tended to then be the only ones found in those regions.
Yes, human beings have evolved different shades of skin in order to best adapt to their environment.
No, human beings have migrated to areas hospital to them by the varying degree of the color of their skin. Further this is biblically supportable. That their skin evolved over time to adapt to their environment is not.
 
I don’t follow your logic. Some common genetic traits does not prove common parenthood.
Firstly science does not do “proof”, as you point out alternative explanations are possible. Science goes with the preponderance of the evidence - “beyond reasonable doubt” if you like.

Secondly, you have picked of of the less bad creationist arguments. Both creationism and evolution predict that living organisms will contain working systems, so we cannot use common traits in working systems to decide between evolution (common descent) and creation (common design). We need to do what encyclopedias do to prevent plagiarism - to look for copied errors. Evolution makes blind copies, errors included. It is more difficult to justify the presence of copies of errors in a creation scenario.

Humans cannot make vitamin C while most other animals can. We have a broken copy of one of the genes for making vitamin C - the GULO gene. Our copy has an error in it, exactly the same error as Gorillas, Chimpanzees and Orangutans. Evolution can explain this very simply - we inherited a copy of the broken gene from our common ancestor with the other apes. Creation finds this more difficult - why would a designer insert a broken gene with exactly the same mistake into many different species? This evidence tends to point towards evolution.
Have sex with an ape and produce a Child and I might agree with what you are saying.
In scientific terms humans are apes, Hominidae. My father (a human and an ape) had sex with my mother (a human and an ape) to produce a child - me.
There is no evidence of links between us and the animals.
As well as the GULO gene I would refer you to human chromosome 2 which is two chimp chromosomes joined end to end. We can still see the redundant telomeres and centromere left after the joining. This is another example of something that is easy to explain with evolution and difficult to explain with creation. Scientifically we meet all the criteria to be an animal.
The missing link is still missing.
Of course it is - if we had found it it would be the “found link” wouldn’t it. 🙂

rossum
 
{snip}
Secondly, you have picked of of the less bad creationist arguments. Both creationism and evolution predict that living organisms will contain working systems, so we cannot use common traits in working systems to decide between evolution (common descent) and creation (common design). We need to do what encyclopedias do to prevent plagiarism - to look for copied errors. Evolution makes blind copies, errors included. It is more difficult to justify the presence of copies of errors in a creation scenario.
{snip}
What I don’t understand is why does it have to be one or the other and not both.
 
What I don’t understand is why does it have to be one or the other and not both.
Creation in general is indeed compatible with evolution - evolution is seen as God’s way of creating creatures. I was referring specifically to the narrow Intelligent Design hypothesis that organisms, or parts of organisms, were directly designed and could not have evolved. In that case there is an either/or choice. My apologies for not making myself clearer.

rossum
 
Precisely because the Son became man, and therefore wholly man as well as wholly God.

Moreover, since God is eternal and the same, He cannot be said to have a body, since Jesus did not have a body eternally, but assumed humanity in historical time.
Now if you deny the real presence you can make the claim that “He cannot be said to have a body” and you would be woefully in error. If you go to Mass you will hear the words “For This is My Body” and “This is the cup of My Blood”. God is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. The Incarnation is the historical point in time in which Jesus bacame true Man. The Risen body of Christ is not bound by time, but transcends time. One of the tenants of our faith.
 
Your dissent from the teaching of the Church is based on a conflation between Jesus as human, and Jesus as God.

We are not to take “image” as a literal physical image of God:

God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, imagebound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God --“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”-- with our human representations

The heresy of anthropomorphism was rejected a long time ago.
 
Your dissent from the teaching of the Church is based on a conflation between Jesus as human, and Jesus as God.
You appear to have a serious trouble with the fact that God has a human nature and a Divine nature as joined through the hypostatic union. What does anthropomorphism have to do with anything we are talking about? Your dissent from the teaching of the Church is based on your rejection that the human Nature of Christ is complete with real flesh, blood, hands, feet, bones, and toenails.
 
gopusa.com/commentary/cmolin/2008/cdm_04221.shtml

Ben Stein Assails The Intelligentsia

By Carol Devine-Molin
April 22, 2008
Ben Stein’s new documentary “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” is a riveting expose of the intolerant academic community that systematically declares war on anyone or any institution * that dares to question liberal Darwinian orthodoxy. “Correct speak” and “correct think” are de rigueur among scholars, who are expected to toe the line that “evolution” and “natural selection” are the be all and end all when it comes to deciphering the origins of mankind.
Thankfully, a few brave scholars have had the intestinal fortitude to challenge Darwinian theory, which cannot properly account for the creation of complex biological mechanisms. These academicians have underscored that the statistical odds are infinitesimal that human DNA could have emerged by evolutionary means as posited by Darwin. By raising the specter of “Intelligent Design”, these renegade scholars have been subjected to terrible smears and utter ruination of their scientific careers. But should anyone be astonished? The modus operandi of the Leftist intelligentsia has always been to protect and perpetuate the big propaganda machine and destroy anyone at variance with dogma.
The keepers of the flame of scholarly “knowledge” are march-in-lockstep secular progressives that view “Intelligent Design” as nothing short of watered-down “Creationism” derived from the Bible. In response, the dissenters maintain that their challenge to the Darwinian framework has nothing to do with religiosity or Christianity. Rather, they find the concept of evolution intrinsically flawed, and they simply want the opportunity to examine a competing theory – Intelligent Design – without fear of being impugned or ostracized. And why shouldn’t these scholars be able to contemplate their navels and debate theories without fear of reprisal? Isn’t that what scholars are supposed to do?
Academic freedom is the vital issue at stake. The intelligentsia’s strong-arm tactics to enforce ideological purity are anti-American, immoral and simply not conducive to good science. What is to be done? Ben Stein did his part by a bit of consciousness raising and sounding the clarion call on behalf of the beleaguered scholars that have come up against the Leftist elites. Now it’s up to Americans to look beyond the guise of “happy face liberalism” to see the real tyranny posed by the political Left that has a virtual stranglehold on academia.
Ben Stein is a controversial guy and not surprisingly, “Expelled” has raised the ire of some in the mainstream media by linking Darwinian theory with atheistic Nazism. Journalist Jeffrey Kluger of Time magazine noted that: “Stein argues that there is a clear line from Darwinism to euthanasia, abortion, eugenics and–wait for it–Nazism. Theories of natural selection, it’s claimed, were a necessary if not sufficient condition for Hitler’s killing machine to get started. The truth, of course, is that the only necessary and sufficient condition for human beings to murder one another is the simple fact of being human. We’ve always been a lustily fratricidal species, one that needed no Charles Darwin to goad us into millenniums of self-slaughter.”
Mr. Kluger is cynical, yes, but a real hoot. So we are to believe that mankind is thoroughly rancid and easily transformed into a bunch of homicidal maniacs? From that perspective, we might as well ditch the fields of social psychology, forensic psychology and criminology, and stop sorting out and examining the twisted ideas and sick societal agendas that give rise to mass murder and genocide. I mean, according to Kluger, we’re not going to be able to prevent the slaughter anyway. The truth of the matter is that when the Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust, they were indeed influenced by Darwin, eugenics and the concept of “natural selection” in efforts to create their “master race”. At the very least, Darwinian theory provided the Nazis with the rationale to enact their heinous ethnic cleansing for the “greater good”.

Ben Stein has provided his audience with incisive analysis – The Nazis were dyed-in-the-wool atheists who fancied themselves as mini-gods poised to develop their man-made utopia. Part and parcel of that plan was to rid the gene pool of all so-called “undesirables” including the Jews, gypsies, handicapped and political dissenters. Darwinian theory, which takes God out of the equation in man’s creation, facilitated an atmosphere that devalued human life in Nazi Germany. And let there be no mistake, the Nazis were not conservatives or right-wingers, but ardent socialists and fascists, as adeptly delineated by Jonah Goldberg in his bestseller, “Liberal Fascism”, which chronicles the history of the political Left.*
 
"
Expelled from ‘Expelled’: Documentary exposes the persecution of academics who support Intelligent Design theory
4/12/2008 2:56:00 PM
By Jill Stanek -Worldnetdaily

On April 18, “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed,” will boast the largest U.S. opening of any documentary film ever.
Scheduled for release in 1,000 theatres, “Expelled” will be hotter than “Farenheit 9/11,” which debuted on 868 screens, and much more convenient to see than “An Inconvenient Truth,” which I was surprised to find opened on only four screens nationwide despite all the hype, peaking at 587 before its appeal melted.
What’s “Expelled” about? Synopsizes CNS News:
“Expelled” calls attention to the plight of highly credentialed scholars who have been forced out of prestigious academic positions because they proposed Intelligent Design as a possible alternative to Charles Darwin’s 150-year-old theories about the origins of life.
Instead of entertaining a debate on the merits of competing theories, the scientific establishment has moved to suppress the ID movement in a “systematic and ruthless” way at odds with America’s founding principles, the film asserts.
Liberals have been going ape about “Expelled” for months as it has been screened around the country.
On March 20, two Darwinian defenders, who accepted payment to talk like buffoons on the film, tried to bust into a private screening in Minnesota.
“PZ” Myers, a University of Minnesota biology professor and proprietor of the popular atheist blog Pharyngula, was quickly expelled, much as he condones expelling professors who deviate from the monkey line, as he wrote on The Panda’s Thumb blog:
The only appropriate responses [to Intelligent Design proponents] should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many school board members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians." ~ Comment #35130, PZ Myers, June 14, 2005
Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist at Oxford who wrote the book “The God Delusion,” gained entry only by foregoing his evolved surname for the formal, Clinton.
Myers then disrupted an “Expelled” conference call with reporters the next day.
These uncivilized spectacles caused a liberal mass meltdown. According to an “Expelled” press release, the “Expelled” controversy held the No. 1 slot in the blogosphere all day March 24, as registered by Nielson’s BlogPulse, and garnered over 800 Technorati results.
If we are seeing this meltdown on the left even before “Expelled” officially opens, expect a Big Bang on April 18.
“This is not a scientific battle; this is a worldview battle,” “Expelled” producer Mark Mathis told me. Mathis has encountered unbridled hostility from the scientific establishment, i.e., avowed Darwinists, at previews.
“Expelled” connects atheism and Darwinism with no missing link, one of the film’s two major flashpoints.
Darwinism is a specific evolutionary theory that excludes everything but material processes in the design of all life forms. No Intelligent Design allowed.
“What’s driving it is Darwinism is a foundational principle - scientific validation of secularism, atheism, liberalism - and that it strikes at the core of who they are,” said Mathis.
“Secondarily, these scientists are the high priests of the biggest question ever asked. They have all the authority, knowledge, power, funding,” continued Mathis. “This is ground they own exclusively. They look down their elitist noses at the unwashed ignorant religious masses and scoff. That’s why they respond with such extreme hostility. They are very concerned that if this monolith cracks, then the whole thing could crash.”
Indeed, “Expelled” is already making a difference. Last month, Ben Stein, star of “Expelled,” screened it for Florida legislators as they prepared to present a bill guaranteeing academic freedom in their schools. It looks ready to pass.
Last week, Stein screened “Expelled” to Missouri lawmakers followed by a press conference promoting three academic freedom bills germinating there.
Not only is Darwinism foundational to atheism, it is foundational to eugenics, the other reason for the left’s apoplexy against “Expelled,” according to Mathis. They cannot tolerate the connection “Expelled” draws between Darwinism and Adolf Hitler.
Or Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood.
“Planned Parenthood is a direct outgrowth of Darwinism,” said Mathis. “Sanger was an open proponent of eugenics, and Darwinism is an idea that naturally leads to eugenics, which they are denying,” said Mathis. “But they are compatible.”
That Hitler and Nazism drew from Darwinism is irrefutable. “Hitler said genocide of Jews was doing good, cleansing the world of ‘useless eaters’ and strengthening formation of an ‘Aryan’ race of super-humans,” said Mathis.
One complaint Darwinist scientists interviewed for “Expelled” have not lodged is that the filmmakers applied Michael Moore cut-and-paste editing to make them look bad. The film includes many of their long, uninterrupted thoughts.
That’s also part of their problem.
 
Upon visiting an auto graveyard, I was struck by the similarity in designs of various systems in a Ford Model A from the Twenties, a Studebaker from the Fifties, and a Ford Mustang from the Seventies. There were similarities in the electrical systems, the exhaust systems, the fuel systems, and even body construction, although the later model cars showed more sophistication.

Suspicious, I removed samples from various parts of the automobiles in question, and brought them back to the laboratory in my basement. After careful chemical analysis of various samples, I can now say that I have definite proof that the Mustand evolved from the Studebaker, which in turn, evolved from the Model A.

Isn’t science a wonderful thing?
 
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