Evidence for Evolution

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[Originally Posted by abu kamoon
It is my understanding that evolution implies one species “evolving” into another. …
And your understanding would be wrong. Please read on below …
… That’s not what I said. I said that my understanding is the evolution implies one specific species “evolves” into another specific species. When has that ever been observed? …
oops, still wrong; please see below …
Ok. Let’s assume that humans, apes, monkeys and chimps all "evolved from some un-named common ancestor. Why are the apes, monkeys and chimps still swinging through the trees or dragging their knuckles on the floor of the jungle, while humans have traveled to the moon? According to evolution, animals and evne humans continue to evolve. But humans build on the accomplishments of previous generations, Animals don’t. How could we all have a common ancestor?
Note for starters that the “why are there still apes?” argument is posted on the page at Answers in Genesis for Arguments that e Think Creationists Should NOT Use.

Furthermore, evolution is NOT about one species transforming into another species. Evolution occurs within populatons of a given species that have change over time. See the What is evolution? page over at talk origins for reference.
Note Futuyama’s quote at the beginning of the article-
"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution … is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
  • Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986 (emphases mine)
See also here -
talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
[/quote]
 
This debate adds fuel for atheists and distracts us from the truths: God is Spirit; God is Love; God died for us. In all the pages of these forums on evolution (and they are exhaustive) I’ve read barely a drop of charity on either side (and patting like minded people on the back for their agreeable views does not count.) Does participation in this thread count as the sin of masturbation? The same things hashed over and over to no purpose. This medium is awful for coming to an understanding on this issue.

In any event, are we called to evangelize evolution or creation? I mean if you are in the mood to evangelize, how about channeling all those web sites and web pages and posts and links to evangelize about the Good News? Lord knows, the atheists who misguidedly think they have justified their nihilism are in desperate need of true evangelization. Their belief system turns their back on He Who is Love and the Way to love.

Contemplate that; contemplate how awful for an intelligent man looking into the night sky and seeing nothing and looking inward and seeing only an animal’s heart–an evolved “ape” where love is just another naturally selected principle in a universe determined by self interested survival of the fittest. This perversion of evolutionary theory is, I think, a diabolical whispering that is catching people asleep who want to give in to their concupiscence but can’t quite shake off the idea of God. This perversion of evolution seems to grant in their mind a justification for their nihilism and in this last turning away of a person whose faith is already asleep comes their will’s accquiesence to their concupiscence–justified since they are only an “evolved ape” anyway.

Evolution aside, I need to pray for people who believe man was made in the image of animals; I need to pray for people who use bad science as a futile shelter to hide from the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

As Catholics who have the sacraments and the Church Christ explicitly made, who embrace the whole truth including science as we always have despite what popular media would make us out, we need to evangelize the Good News as consonant with a reasoned view of the universe and how it supercedes any (psuedo) science based philosophy of life–in utility, beauty, dignity, quality of life, and quality of love especially.

We have been given freedom and abundant life in Christ and I don’t know how to help those who see in these theories a justification for nihilism. It’s just terrible, cause the slavery such theories lead to is like a hell on earth already.

I sometimes think that if I did not see through a glass darkly, that if I see with spiritual eyes, seeing those poor souls would drive me mad. Oh my Jesus, have mercy on us, have mercy on me, a sinner.
 
Hello,

They have “itching ears” and have teachers to distract them. They will no longer tolerate sound doctrine. (2 Timothy, 4:3)

The debate is artificial. It is a form of advertising.

God bless,
Ed
 
There’s no significant difference between the two.

Evolution over a long period of time = "macro"evolution.
Evolution over a short period of time = "micro"evolution.

The only difference between "micro"evolution and "macro"evolution is quantity.

That’s not true. Macro-evolution involves a much more radical speciation whereby a completely distinct and population evolves which is genetically incapable of breeding with the original stock. This kind of speciation has never been observed to be happening. It is a theory of history as much as a biological theory.

Yes, but not as you understand it.
Dogs don’t evolve into caterpillars. Fruit flies don’t evolve into birds.

Humans DID NOT evolve from apes, monkeys, and chimps et cetera. Humans, apes, monkeys, and chimps ALL evolved from a common ancestor, which is not still around today.

Don’t you mean “modern” apes,monkeys and chimpanzees?

If this is your understanding of evolution, then I understand why you think it’s absurd. It is.

To say that humans and apes have a common ancestor amouts to the same thing. No matter which way you cut it,the ancestor of humans,according to the theory of evolution,would have been a simian.

Nope. What you have there are either incompetent “evolutionists”, or the opposition misinterpreting/misunderstanding what evolutionists have said.

That kind of continuum is found in our ancestral lineage only.

That kind of genetic fluidity is read into our ancestral lineage. If there are no populations of apes or chimpanzees evolving into something other than apes and chimpanzees,then it is not likely that it happened in the past either. There’s no reason why that kind of evolutionary change above the species level should have stopped happening. That would mean the “rules” of nature have changed.

Millions of years ago, apes and monkeys and chimps did not exist

Yes,they did.

– but their common ancestors did. Compared to only a few thousand years ago, yes, they’re mostly the same. Because evolution takes a long time.

That doesn’t satisfy us, either. Sounds like you’ve only talked to proponents of atheistic/materialistic evolution. This is theistic evolution – the best of both worlds.

Theistic evolution justs accepts the theory of evolution whole and puts a lame theistic spin on it by saying: “…and this is how God did it.” No critical thinking involved.
The theory of evolution can do without a Creator,because it is a naturalistic theory. God is not necessary to the theory of evolution.
 
Disruptive selection?
Yes. It is quite common when a population enters a new environment with many open niches.
How could a continuum of evolving species be represented by the same series of fossils?
Such series exist. Would you like to see some of them?
Why would we expect the “missing links”, those intermediates which shold theoretically vastly outnumber the fossils of species we find be missing?
Fossilization is rather rare for most organisms. But fortunately, we do have examples of this. Horses, for example.
Obviously, according to evolutionary theory, they were sucessful. They survived to reproduce. Then they vanished without a trace! Where is the evidence for this?
How many fossilized humans have there been in the last few thousand years? How many fossilized raccoons, or pelicans? For any person willing to face reality, that’s the answer.
 
Macro-evolution involves a much more radical speciation whereby a completely distinct and population evolves which is genetically incapable of breeding with the original stock. This kind of speciation has never been observed to be happening.
The first directly observed example was in 1904. Want to learn about it?
To say that humans and apes have a common ancestor amouts to the same thing. No matter which way you cut it,the ancestor of humans,according to the theory of evolution,would have been a simian.
Hominin.
The theory of evolution can do without a Creator,because it is a naturalistic theory. God is not necessary to the theory of evolution.
He’s not necessary to the theory of gravity, either. Unless you start thinking about where it all came from. You’ve got a lot of catching up to do, if you want to be part of this discussion.
 
[Ok. Let’s assume that humans, apes, monkeys and chimps all "evolved from some un-named common ancestor. Why are the apes, monkeys and chimps still swinging through the trees or dragging their knuckles on the floor of the jungle, while humans have traveled to the moon? According to evolution, animals and evne humans continue to evolve. ?
Abu, perhaps you can enlighten me about something that has stumped me for a long time: if I am descended from Europeans, then why are there still Europeans?
[/quote]
 
Yes. It is quite common when a population enters a new environment with many open niches.

Such series exist. Would you like to see some of them?

That’s is all we do see. The same fossils of the same species. We never see these nebulous intermediates, the “missing links”. Surely, there must have been more of these missing links than the fossils we always find. Where are they?

Fossilization is rather rare for most organisms. But fortunately, we do have examples of this. Horses, for example.

Yes, horses, modern and extinct. but were are the fossils between horses and some other species. There should be a lot more of them than fossils of horses. Where did they go?

How many fossilized humans have there been in the last few thousand years? How many fossilized raccoons, or pelicans?

All of them! All of the fossilized humans, raccoons and pelicans are from the last few thousand years. It’s the Evolutionists who insist that they are hundreds of thousands or millions of years old.

I still haven’t heard where all the intermediates are.

For any person willing to face reality, that’s the answer.
 
I would agree that variation within a species is a very interesting problem, since even selective breeding programs tend to have so much difficulty with reverts to the common or mixed form. Purebred cats are notorious for this…
Indeed, my many years of selective breeding as farmer working to improve upon traits in my animals would be testament to the extreme difficulty in making any genetic progress to the point that ‘random’ improvement and selection is not only laughable but preposterous as well.
 
Barbarian on disruptive selection:
Yes. It is quite common when a population enters a new environment with many open niches.

Such series exist. Would you like to see some of them?
\That’s is all we do see. The same fossils of the same species.
Let’s test your beliefs. If I can show you a series of fossils, each less different from the adjacent one, than the variation within many species, but the first and last are entirely different animals, will you agree that this would invalidate your belief?

If not, why not? If so, you have the courage to see if you are wrong. Ready?
We never see these nebulous intermediates, the “missing links”.
You’ve been misled. There are millions of them.
Surely, there must have been more of these missing links than the fossils we always find. Where are they?
If you have the courage to test that assumption, we can begin. Fair enough?

Barbarian observes:
Fossilization is rather rare for most organisms. But fortunately, we do have examples of this. Horses, for example.
Yes, horses, modern and extinct.
Quite a jump from Hyracotherium to Equus. You would never know the two were related, if you didn’t have the intermediates. But we do. Want to see?
but were are the fossils between horses and some other species.
Condylarths. There are condylarths that are very much like Hyracotherium.

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Hall/1697/meniscotherium.JPG

Would you like to know from where condylarths originated?
There should be a lot more of them than fossils of horses.
There are.
Where did they go?
Museums and universities, mostly.

Barbarian observes:
How many fossilized humans have there been in the last few thousand years? How many fossilized raccoons, or pelicans?
All of them! All of the fossilized humans, raccoons and pelicans are from the last few thousand years.
You can show me a fossilized racoon of the species that now exist? Great. Show us.
It’s the Evolutionists who insist that they are hundreds of thousands or millions of years old.
Physicists. Physics says the world is about 4.5 billion years old.
I still haven’t heard where all the intermediates are.
You have, but you do the usual creationist/IDer thing; both hands in your ears, eyes tightly closed. Those guys look on evidence the way a vampire regards a crucifix.
For any person willing to face reality, that’s the answer.
I’m willing to give you a chance. Do you have enough faith in your assumptions to test them?
 
Indeed, my many years of selective breeding as farmer working to improve upon traits in my animals would be testament to the extreme difficulty in making any genetic progress to the point that ‘random’ improvement and selection is not only laughable but preposterous as well.
In other words, “I can’t do it in a few years, so certainly God couldn’t produce a system that would do it in a few billion years.”

This is really at the heart of the creationist/ID objection to science.
 
In other words, “I can’t do it in a few years, so certainly God couldn’t produce a system that would do it in a few billion years.”

This is really at the heart of the creationist/ID objection to science.
No, rather it is reasonable to say that since it is so difficult to improve upon heritable traits such getting a rump to be more square and level and then get this trait to reliably pass on generation after generation, it would be ludicrous to even attempt to breed an extra elbow into it.
 
Barbarian on disruptive selection:
Yes. It is quite common when a population enters a new environment with many open niches.

Such series exist. Would you like to see some of them?

Let’s test your beliefs. If I can show you a series of fossils, each less different from the adjacent one, than the variation within many species, but the first and last are entirely different animals, will you agree that this would invalidate your belief?

If not, why not? If so, you have the courage to see if you are wrong. Ready?

You’ve been misled. There are millions of them.

" I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic licence, would that not mislead the reader?"(Patterson, Colin [late Senior Palaeontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London], letter 10 April 1979, in Sunderland L.D., “Darwin’s Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems,” [1984], Master Book Publishers: El Cajon CA, Fourth Edition, 1988, p.89).

"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. (Gould, Stephen Jay [Professor of Zoology and Geology, Harvard University, USA], “Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?,” Paleobiology, Vol. 6, No. 1, January 1980, p.127).

“Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists the most notorious of which is the presence of gaps’ in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them.” (Kitts, David B. [Professor of Geology, University of Oklahoma], “Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory,” Evolution, Vol. 28, September 1974, p.467).

“The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils.” (Gould, Stephen Jay [Professor of Zoology and Geology, Harvard University, USA], “Evolution’s erratic pace,” Natural History, Vol. 86, No. 5, pp.12-16, May 1977, p. 14).

If you have the courage to test that assumption, we can begin. Fair enough?

Barbarian observes:
Fossilization is rather rare for most organisms. But fortunately, we do have examples of this. Horses, for example.

Quite a jump from Hyracotherium to Equus. You would never know the two were related, if you didn’t have the intermediates. But we do. Want to see?

Condylarths. There are condylarths that are very much like Hyracotherium.

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Hall/1697/meniscotherium.JPG

“Many people suppose that phylogeny can be discovered directly from the fossil record by studying a graded series of old to young fossils and by discovering ancestors, but this is not true. The fossil record supplies evidence of the geological ages of the forms of life, but not of their direct ancestor-descendant relationships. There is no way of knowing whether a fossil is a direct ancestor of a more recent species or represents a related line of descent (lineage) that simply became extinct.” (Knox B., Ladiges P. & Evans B., eds., “Biology,” [1994], McGraw-Hill: Sydney, Australia, 1995, reprint, p.663) .

Would you like to know from where condylarths originated?

There are.

Museums and universities, mostly.

Barbarian observes:
How many fossilized humans have there been in the last few thousand years? How many fossilized raccoons, or pelicans?

You can show me a fossilized racoon of the species that now exist? Great. Show us.

Fossil Raccoon Skull

Physicists. Physics says the world is about 4.5 billion years old.

You have, but you do the usual creationist/IDer thing; both hands in your ears, eyes tightly closed. Those guys look on evidence the way a vampire regards a crucifix.

I’m willing to give you a chance. Do you have enough faith in your assumptions to test them?
 
You have, but you do the usual creationist/IDer thing; both hands in your ears, eyes tightly closed. Those guys look on evidence the way a vampire regards a crucifix.
Barbarian, in one sense Expelled will be a tempest in a teapot that will die down after a few weeks. I remember last May there was a flurry of concern about the opening of the AiG creation “museum” in Ohio; now hardly anyone talks about it, and it has in no way affected the doing of science. Expelled has created waves in the blogosphere for a few days, but when ID’s scientific utility continues to be shown to be zero – as it has been all along – we will get back to normal, and this movie will sink into oblivion.

However, Expelled may serve one useful function, if it sets the evangelical atheists back on their heels, ending their harsh rhetoric about religion being useless or nor more harmful than knitting. It would be nice once again to enjoy productive dialogue about important issues at the interface between science and religion. Science is after all religion neutral, and can shed important light on things that matter to religion.

Petrus
 
Science is religion neutral? This is false and misleading.

Pope John Paul II defined the relationship between science and religion: “Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.”

If truth cannot contradict truth, truth must flow in both directions.

God bless,
Ed
 
Having actually done science for a living, it’s hard for me to understand how people can’t understand that science can say nothing about religion.

It’s a method. It’s not a worldview, it’s not a philosophy, it’s just a method, a way of doing things that gives us reliable answers about the world in which we live.

Nature is bigger than science, and some day, someone may work out a method that transcends science and brings in God. That would be an amazing thing, but we can’t do that, yet. Maybe we never will.

It doesn’t matter. This Saturday morning, I got up early, and took the dog for a walk around the lake. The mist was coming up, showing last year’s cattails on the shoreline, white geese, gaudy mallards, and (oddly) one pair of northern shovelers which seem disinclined to leave.

A large turtle slid off a rotting log as we went by, and back where the water comes up into the willows, wa a great blue heron. He knows me and the dog; last summer, he finally tolerated me getting close enough to get some good pictures, but he’s still very wary.

And at that moment, in that soft grey light, I got all of it all at once. The beauty and reasonableness and rightness of creation flooded in on me. And I saw God’s fingerprints everywhere. Each time that happens, it takes me back to the first time, when I was

Certainly, knowing a little of the biology and chemistry and physics of it all enriched that understanding for me. But it couldn’t give me that understanding.

Science can’t go there. But scientists can.

Thank God.
 
The Catholic Church looks at the whole of reality. It has a Pontifical Academy of Sciences. It gives its followers guidance in all matters, spiritual and scientific. It properly defines when and where the discoveries of science cross the line into error and idolatory. It does this for genetic research, human cloning, transhumanism, embryonic stem cell research and the list goes on.

In the area of evolution, the Church has rightly defined man’s place in God’s creation. It correctly points out that those “fooled by atheism” as Pope Benedict has stated, see human life as pure chance and necessity only.

God bless,
Ed
 
And at that moment, in that soft grey light, I got all of it all at once. The beauty and reasonableness and rightness of creation flooded in on me. And I saw God’s fingerprints everywhere.
Certainly, knowing a little of the biology and chemisty and physics of it all enriched that understanding for me. But it couldn’t give me that understanding. Science can’t go there. But scientists can. Thank God.
The Barbarian, thank you for this beautifully expressed post! You are absolutely right that the scientific method is religion-neutral, just as plumbing or electricity or dentistry are religion neutral.

I’ve worked with a plumber who was a devout Jew, who prayed as he soldered pipes, and with a Protestant electrician. And my dentist is a lifelong Catholic. An atheist could make as good a scientist, plumber, electrician, or dentist.

But I’m glad my dentist is Catholic, because he loves to talk with my about issues at the interface of science and religion. It’s not always convenient: I had extensive work in preparation for a crown recently, and he was asking me questions about eschatology and the entropic heat death of the universe, and it was hard to answer with my mouth stuffed full of instruments, cotton, and the saliva suction tube! Still, our shared Catholicism adds a dimension to our discussions of science, and that’s important.

Petrus
 
Abu, perhaps you can enlighten me about something that has stumped me for a long time: if I am descended from Europeans, then why are there still Europeans?
You and “modern” Europeans share a “common ancestor”. :rolleyes:
 
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