Evidence for God

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Imelahn, I don’t think that changing ‘beauty’ to ‘nobility’ makes any difference to my objection. It would still be a personal subjective opinion. I agree that, in this case, we shouldn’t try to compare apples with oranges, but you seem determined to do so.

I don’t think that I agree that humans are a superior kind of thing to oak trees. Humans are superior in some ways (like footballing ability), whilst oak trees are superior in other ways (e.g. tensile strength, longevity). Comparing such disparate things under one all-encompassing heading makes no sense to me. Which is ‘better’, a pencil or a cloud?

I’m afraid I don’t understand the term ‘act of being’. Are there varying degrees of being-ness? Can I be said to ‘be’ more intensely than a tree? You described it as a “radical intrinsic source of perfection”, and by perfection I believe you mean ‘fulfilling its potential’. I’m none the wiser.

My objection is mainly that I dislike vague ill-defined terms. I much prefer things to be definable, measurable, demonstrable. Of course, I accept that when dealing with metaphysical concepts this is not always possible. However, the difficulty I have is this: if this ‘act of being’ cannot be measured or demonstrated, or even defined in terms of objective truths, how can we be sure that the concept relates to something that is actually real?
 
Imelahn, I don’t think that changing ‘beauty’ to ‘nobility’ makes any difference to my objection. It would still be a personal subjective opinion.
Bad habit. 🙂 “Nobilitas” happens to be the term that Aquinas uses for beauty in his Fourth Way (Summa theologiae, I, q. 2). I was intending to use the terms interchangeably.

I guess my question to you is this: do you think that there is no objective component to beauty (a.k.a. nobiliity) at all? That it is entirely in the eye of the beholder? That my preference for Raphael’s School of Athens over the graffiti on the Roman subways is entirely subjective?

I am not saying that there is no subjective component to beauty whatsoever; just that there is also an underlying objective aspect.
I agree that, in this case, we shouldn’t try to compare apples with oranges, but you seem determined to do so.
That was an attempt at humor :). Although apples and oranges are difficult to compare, because they are on essentially the same ontological level (as with clouds and pencils), I think it is relatively easy to compare oaks and men. (See below.)
I don’t think that I agree that humans are a superior kind of thing to oak trees. Humans are superior in some ways (like footballing ability), whilst oak trees are superior in other ways (e.g. tensile strength, longevity). Comparing such disparate things under one all-encompassing heading makes no sense to me. Which is ‘better’, a pencil or a cloud?
Well, let me ask you something: have you met any oak trees that speculate about whether they are superior to men? Or read any oak poetry? Do oaks have a monarchical or a republican government? (This is intentionally meant to sound ridiculous, obviously :).)

My point is, there is a whole range of actions that sub-human creatures are simply incapable of (everything that has to do with knowing and loving).

Sure, oak trees are superior to men in a few superficial ways, but the capacity to know and love is by far the most important difference between us.
I’m afraid I don’t understand the term ‘act of being’. Are there varying degrees of being-ness? Can I be said to ‘be’ more intensely than a tree? You described it as a “radical intrinsic source of perfection”, and by perfection I believe you mean ‘fulfilling its potential’. I’m none the wiser.
That is basically correct. “Perfection” essentially translates Aristotle’s entelechia (“fulfillment”). The difficulty in defining it is that it is too basic a notion. I think the best way is to look at examples. The “perfection” (fulfillment) of an oak tree, to use our example, is the adult oak; of a wolf cub, an adult wolf that reproduces its species; of an arrow shot from a bow, reaching the bullseye.

Of course, perfection admits of degrees: man’s perfection consists first of all in living a life of virtue; (in the Christian context) he obtains a further and far superior perfection by living the life of grace; and he obtains his ultimate perfection in the contemplation of the Beatific Vision.
My objection is mainly that I dislike vague ill-defined terms. I much prefer things to be definable, measurable, demonstrable. Of course, I accept that when dealing with metaphysical concepts this is not always possible. However, the difficulty I have is this: if this ‘act of being’ cannot be measured or demonstrated, or even defined in terms of objective truths, how can we be sure that the concept relates to something that is actually real?
We get to the act of being by analyzing reality. It stems from the fact that certain things are superior in kind to other things: men are superior to animals, which are superior to plants and fungi and those kinds of things, which are superior to inanimate objects. (I agree, by the way, that it is difficult to place the lower orders in a strict hierarchy. But I find it difficult to deny that man is superior to the other creatures, for the reasons I mentioned.)

I will attempt to give an extremely short summary of how that analysis works:

Beings subsist, as I was saying, in various ontological “degrees” or “grades.” (At a minimum, there is a wide qualitative difference between man and the rest of the beings. I have a feeling that this is a sticking point between you and me, but bear with me :).) On the other hand, they are all “beings;” they all “are.” Whenever we find continuity and difference in the same subjects (in this case, all have “being” in common, but different ontological degrees), it is evidence of composition: what is held in common must be distinct from what distinguishes each individual being (otherwise, no creature would be distinct from any other, or at least, we could not have different ontological grades).

The principle held in common, which is the “active” principle, we call “act of being.” The principle that differentiates each ontological degree we call “essence,” which is the creature’s fundamental capacity for being; its function is to “measure” and limit the act of being. What do we call the active principle “act” of being? Because it provides a creature with its existence; it “actuates” that creatures.

(Notice that I have not yet mentioned God at all. All of this takes place, so to speak, within the very structure of a creature.)

In reality, I am giving this analysis short shrift: we really ought to begin with the composition between substance and accident, and then matter and form, and then I could demonstrate that neither of these is sufficient to explain the diversity of ontological degrees. We must, therefore, postulate a third composition: the one I described, between act of being and essence.
 
First of all I apologise to the original poster and other contributors to this thread if I’ve taken it off at a tangent. Secondly, thank you to Imelahn for his patience in trying to remedy my ignorance of the concepts and terminology of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. Clearly my 1980s grammar school education was not sufficiently classical.
Imelahn:
do you think that there is no objective component to beauty (a.k.a. nobiliity) at all?
The short answer is that I don’t know. I’m not convinced that there is necessarily any objective beauty. People may share some common notions of what is beautiful, but that may be due to received cultural values held in common, rather than something truly objective.
Imelahn:
have you met any oak trees that speculate about whether they are superior to men? Or read any oak poetry? Do oaks have a monarchical or a republican government?
Your point, if I understand it correctly, is that certain abilities make humans superior to things that do not have those abilities. I would agree, with the caveat that these abilities make humans superior only in those specific fields. I’m not convinced that this means humans are superior in any overall sense. You would have to define the specific abilities that you want to consider before the comparison of superiority can be made.
Imelahn:
oak trees are superior to men in a few superficial ways, but the capacity to know and love is by far the most important difference between us
Stating that intelligence and emotion are more important than other differences is a qualitative assessment and is surely subjective. I might agree with you, but that is probably because I am also a human. If the oak tree were able to give its opinion it might have a very different perspective (as might an alien species). It might say that the capacity to know leads to all sorts of foolish and unpleasant human acts when what we think we know is not correct or we don’t know as much as we thought we did. Similarly with the capacity to love: our friend the oak tree could plausibly argue that it can lead to anxiety, depression and acts of unwarranted cruelty. I’m not convinced that you’ve demonstrated an objective superiority.
Imelahn:
perfection admits of degrees: man’s perfection consists first of all in living a life of virtue; (in the Christian context) he obtains a further and far superior perfection by living the life of grace; and he obtains his ultimate perfection in the contemplation of the Beatific Vision
Here is the crux of the matter, I think. The concepts of superiority and perfection as you have stated them only make sense in the context of religious doctrine. You have defined perfection not in objective terms, but by reference to virtue, grace and the Beatific Vision.

I shall not comment on the rest of your post because I do not agree with the notion of humans necessarily being ‘superior in kind’ (as I have explained above) upon which your comments are based.

This brings me back (I hope) to my initial objection to what Linusthe2nd said in post #10. It seems to me that the degree to which something possesses the act of existence or the act of being (call it what you will) and that thing’s degree of perfection is dependent upon a subjective qualitative assessment, not on objective reality. In other words, it’s an anthopocentric construct, not a ‘real’ quantity.
 
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Stating that intelligence and emotion are more important than other differences is a qualitative assessment and is surely subjective. I might agree with you, but that is probably because I am also a human. If the oak tree were able to give its opinion it might have a very different perspective (as might an alien species). It might say that the capacity to know leads to all sorts of foolish and unpleasant human acts when what we think we know is not correct or we don’t know as much as we thought we did. Similarly with the capacity to love: our friend the oak tree could plausibly argue that it can lead to anxiety, depression and acts of unwarranted cruelty. I’m not convinced that you’ve demonstrated an objective superiority.

…]
These problems are related. Let me attempt to answer the question of the superiority of man to sub-human creatures. The problem is that this question could easily be the topic of a whole year of study, or more. (I probably confused matters by bringing in grace and the Beatific Vision; it was not my intention to make my answer depend on those). Anyway, here are the bare bones:

They key principle that is used to answer this question is the principle of causality, which can be summarized as “every effect depends on a cause,” or formulated negatively as sublata causa, tollitur effectus (if you remove the cause, you remove the effect).

Now, I should point out that, since I take my cue from Aristotle and St. Thomas, I understand the notion of “cause” in a slightly different way than most modern philosophers do (and as a consequence, most scientists that I have seen). I don’t think this nuance causes any harm to modern science, but it is helpful for metaphysical discussions like this one.

In summary the key thing to take away is that “causes” (or perhaps for clarity we can say “direct causes”) are always present and the effect is immediate. Let’s take an easy example of a direct cause: what causes the top of my desk to be immovable, three feet off the floor? Its legs, which provide a combined force that exactly counteracts the weight of the desktop (and whatever is sitting on top of it).

Now, is the carpenter (the one who made the desk) a direct cause of the position of my desktop? No. He is an example of what I call a circumstantial cause. Why? Because he is not present anymore. Holding up the desktop, here and now, is very different from fashioning and setting up the desk five years ago.

The second idea is that an effect can never be greater than its direct cause(s). It can be greater than its circumstantial causes. I think I saw on the thread that someone used the example of lighting a fire. Sure, the mature fire is much hotter than the match or spark that was used to light it, but that is because a whole series of circumstantial causes have coincided to produce the effect that is present here and now. (Right now, the fire is directly caused, not by the original spark, which is long gone, but by the hot fuel and the oxygen in the air.) In fact it is simple physics that there is much more potential energy in the chemical bonds of fuel than is actually given off as heat; you never get absolutely perfect combustion. At the very least, the fire does not produce more heat than is available in those bonds (which is why you have to add fuel after a while).

OK, so let’s look at our friends the oak trees and at ourselves, men. What kinds of things are oak trees capable of? Well, they can grow, make and obtain nutrients, and (if all goes well) develop into a hardy tree with hard wood and beautiful leaves (subjectively beautiful, to be sure :)).

Now, the thing is, we can do all the same things, even though perhaps not as well in some aspects: we can grow and obtain nutrients (although admittedly we cannot make nutrients, as the oak tree can). However, we can also move around on our own; we are capable of sensitive knowledge (we can perceive things, use our imagination, remember things); we have emotions and passions: all of these things, we share in common with at least the “higher” animals (forgive the expression :)). So you see, there is already a whole range of activity that we (and all animals) can accomplish, but that oak trees are simply incapable of; whereas we can do essentially everything that oak trees can (albeit less perfectly in some aspects).

However, even more importantly than that, there is the whole aspect of intellectual activity. Man is capable of knowing things in such a way that is not dependent on his material reality. Consider our capacity for “abstraction.” Whereas animals can know this oak tree or that one, you and I can know what an oak tree is, which is very different. It is a truly universally applicable knowledge. (The same can be said for our ability to love which, by the way, is not limited to being an emotion.)

And here is the key step: what is the direct cause of a man’s activity? The man himself. If the man exhibits superior kind of activity to an oak tree, and the effect cannot be greater than the direct cause, it follows that man is also a superior kind of being than an oak tree.

And just the universal applicability of man’s capacity to know (his intellect) is enough to make it superior to any activity of an oak tree. If we investigate further, we learn that man’s intellectual activity, which does not depend directly on his matter, is actually spiritual in character. It follows that man is a spiritual being, unlike oaks or even the “highest” (sub-human) animals.

I recognize that this is too much for one post. If I could make a recommendation, I would suggest the following book: Man Incarnate Spirit by Ramon Lucas Lucas.
 
Imelahn, thank you again for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation.

I think I can accept that a human’s ability to cause their own activity could be considered a superior kind of ability than that of an oak tree. From this it seems reasonable that all animals are a superior kind of being to plants.

Clearly this same argument will not work in trying to determine if humans are superior to dogs or chimpanzees.
Imelahn:
If we investigate further, we learn that man’s intellectual activity, which does not depend directly on his matter, is actually spiritual in character. It follows that man is a spiritual being, unlike oaks or even the “highest” (sub-human) animals.
How do you define ‘spiritual’ in this context, and how is it determined that humans are spiritual but humpback whales are not?
 
I certainly understand more and less beautiful. It would follow, but still seems strange, that a more beautiful person is more real than the rest of us, right? Or that a more beautiful painting exists more fully than a hideous one. Just not sure how we can understand more/less being-ness without recourse to a decent analogy of some sort (like waking vs dreams or optical illusions vs accurate perception).
We could say that a pound of gold is more perfect than an ounce, that it has more existence. A yard stick is longer than a ruler, therefore it has more existence. If you still disagree, just remember that whatever is imperfect in existence, must have its existence caused by something which possesses perfect existence. And from Thomas’ argument it is clear that form and existence are separate causes, because no form can cause its own existence. I cannot cause my own existence. So existence is a separate perfection of a being. Now that which can cause actual existence of a form must be pure existence, a being which owes its existence to no other.

" 80. Now, whatever belongs to a thing is either caused by the principles of its nature, as the ability to laugh in man, or comes to it from some extrinsic principle, as light in the air from the influence of the sun. But it cannot be that the existence of a thing is caused by the form or quiddity of that thing ─ I say caused as by an efficient cause ─ because then something would be its own cause, and would bring itself into existence, which is impossible. It is therefore necessary that every such thing, the existence of which is other than its nature, have its existence from some other thing. And because every thing which exists by virtue of another is led back, as to its first cause, to that which exists by virtue of itself, it is necessary that there be some thing which is the cause of the existence of all things because it is existence alone. Otherwise, there would be an infinite regress among causes, since every thing which is not existence alone has a cause of its existence, as has been said. It is clear, therefore, that an intelligence is form and existence, and that it has existence from the First Being, which is existence alone. And this is the First Cause, which is God. "
dhspriory.org/thomas/english/DeEnte&Essentia.htm

Pax
Linus2nd
 
‘Better’, ‘more beautiful’ and ‘more powerful’ are all subjective assessments. I think crab grass is much more beautiful than the flower of the birthwort (Aristolochia gigantea). It all depends on personal preference.

How do you conclude that a man possesses life more completely than a flower? What about in comparison to an oak tree. Oaks can live much longer and are much harder to destroy than a man. So they must ‘possess life more completely’, is that right?

The oak tree outside my house looks to be an almost perfect specimen. It’s magnificent. It is almost perfect at being an oak tree. I’m far less accomplished at being a human being. So it must possess existence more perfectly than me, is that right? No, I don’t think so.

Things don’t ‘possess the act of existence’. That sort of alleged ‘reasoning’ is just twisting words out of shape until they have no meaning at all. Things either exist, or they do not, at a given point in time and space. Things can exist for a longer or shorter time than another thing. Things can be better or worse in a whole list of categories. But the degree to which something ‘possesses the act of existence’ is not meaningful as an objective assessment.
We could say that a pound of is more perfect than an ounce, that it has more existence. A yard stick is longer than a ruler, therefore it has more existence. If you still disagree, just remember that whatever is imperfect in existence, must have its existence caused by something which possesses perfect existence. And from Thomas’ argument it is clear that form and existence are separate causes, because no form can cause its own existence. I cannot cause my own existence. So existence is a separate perfection of a being. Now that which can cause actual existence of a form must be pure existence, a being which owes its existence to no other.

Read the underlined portion of Thomas’ argument and see if that at least makes sense. Here Thomas is not talking about " perfection of existence, ’ rather he is making the point that existence is separate from the form or whatness of a thing. And this is true of the entire contingent universe. And since no contingent being can cause its own existence, its existence must be caused by some being which is is perfect existence or perfect being, a being for which form/nature/existence are one and the same, pure existence, absolutely perfect existence, which causes the act of existence in all other things.

" 80. Now, whatever belongs to a thing is either caused by the principles of its nature, as the ability to laugh in man, or comes to it from some extrinsic principle, as light in the air from the influence of the sun. But it cannot be that the existence of a thing is caused by the form or quiddity of that thing ─ I say caused as by an efficient cause ─ because then something would be its own cause, and would bring itself into existence, which is impossible. It is therefore necessary that every such thing, the existence of which is other than its nature, have its existence from some other thing. And because every thing which exists by virtue of another is led back, as to its first cause, to that which exists by virtue of itself, it is necessary that there be some thing which is the cause of the existence of all things because it is existence alone. Otherwise, there would be an infinite regress among causes, since every thing which is not existence alone has a cause of its existence, as has been said. It is clear, therefore, that an intelligence is form and existence, and that it has existence from the First Being, which is existence alone. And this is the First Cause, which is God. "
dhspriory.org/thomas/english/DeEnte&Essentia.htm
 
Imelahn, thank you again for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation.

I think I can accept that a human’s ability to cause their own activity could be considered a superior kind of ability than that of an oak tree. From this it seems reasonable that all animals are a superior kind of being to plants.

Clearly this same argument will not work in trying to determine if humans are superior to dogs or chimpanzees.
OK, now we have arrived somewhere. :).

Plants do have some limited power to cause activity, but animals have more (the power of locomotion, sensation, and so on). I agree that on the basis of these kinds of power alone it would be difficult to distinguish a man from a chimpanzee, say. (A chimpanzee even has very well developed senses, memory, and imagination, just as we do.)
How do you define ‘spiritual’ in this context, and how is it determined that humans are spiritual but humpback whales are not?
“Spiritual” is one of those terms that is difficult to define way we usually like (by naming a class or “genus” and specifying the so-called “specific difference”), because we don’t have direct experience of it.

But basically, it means, “that which does not depend on matter (in the classical sense, not the sense used in modern physics) for its existence.”

Humpback whales (and chimpanzees) exhibit no activity that does not depend directly on their material, bodily reality. Chimpanzees in particular have highly developed “higher” functions (imagination, memory, and so on), but even these are simply interior reconstructions of the sensations they have received. It enables them to recognize people and other chimpanzees, remember how to get certain kinds of food and so on, but it is still just a sophisticated memory and reconstruction.

On the other hand, humans are capable of something more: the clearest example, I think, is that of abstraction. We are doing it right now as we discuss these problems: think of the concepts we are discussing: chimpanzees, humpback whales, human beings and so on. I am not referring to abstract concepts (like “species” or “mathematics”), but concepts generated from concrete individual things.

A chimpanzee can know, or recognize, this or that chimpanzee or human researcher. But it cannot understand what chimpanzees are (or humans). It is simply incapable of abstraction (much to the disappointment of a lot of researchers, actually). There have been hundreds of fascinating experiments on this score.

Abstraction is just an example (human beings move in a whole intellectual world that is simply not open to animals), but it has the advantage of showing clearly the difference between animals’ strictly concrete, singular knowledge, and human beings’ abstract, universal knowledge.

You see, when we abstract, we take into our minds whatever it is that we know (perhaps a whale, a pet dog, a tree, a stone, or what have you), but we leave aside its material reality when we do so. Our concepts are no longer tied to this or that whale (dog, tree, stone, etc.), but to every whale (or what have you). That is the leap that chimpanzees (arguably our closest relatives, as far as intelligence is concerned) are unable to make.

That is clear evidence, it seems to me, of a reality in human beings that goes far beyond what is strictly material. In philosophy, we describe that reality as “spiritual” (not dependent on matter).

(This is not the “spiritual life” that theologians speak of, or not exactly.)
 
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