Evidence for Once Saved Always Saved?

[Telestia]

IMV:

To begin with, we ought to clarify what is meant as being SAVED.

Next, so we should define what is meant by “SAVED”.

When I refer to being SAVED.

My understanding of the Biblical concept of word “SAVED” is the set of all people who will enter the Kingdom of God.

I share Saint Augustine’s view that all people whom will enter the Kingdom of God, have been predestined to enter the Kingdom of God before they were born in the Flesh in our world - Earth.

"With the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
Rom 10:10-13 NASU

**Rom 8:1-11

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the [MOSAIC} Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NASU**
Please note that I am not defending ‘Once Saved Always Saved.’

Like Augustine, I’m convinced by the Holy Scriptures that all God’s children were predestined to be saved before God Created the Cosmos and the Kingdom. We are His Children, so we are born into the Cosmos, a melting furnace that removes our impurities, and we are ultimately destined to enter the Kingdom of God.

**Hear Jesus words - John 10: 1-8

10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” NAS****

 

[Telestia]

A natural objection to Predestination is it is unfair to those whom God did not predestined, to be saved, The Apostle Paul addressed this objection:

**Rom 9:1-25
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

1. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

1. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
   NASU**
   Also

Augustine was criticized on his view that God Predestined to salvation prior to their birth. Their objection was "Why are we teaching the Gospel and trying to lead people to become Christians if all Christians are Predstined. After all, Why did Jesus then give His Church the Great Commision - Preaching to all peoples if they have been predestined to be saved.

Why then did Jesus gives us the Great Commision, sending Christians throughout the world to share the Gospel, if all are predestined?

The answer is simple.

Romans 9: 22 - 30: At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long **will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

We share the gospel of Jesus with all peoples so that His Children will hear His voice, and they will come to Him. We do not know who they are, but when they hear Jesus’s teachings, His words, they will recognize Him and they will come to Him. So we must honor the Great Commision and take the Gospel to all peoples on the earth.**

 

[aidanbradypop]

Telestia…I was saved by my baptism…I am being saved everyday by the Sacraments…and my hope in salvation is only a guarantee if I persevere to the end. That is where I stand.

 

[Georgia]

John 10:28 was the quote used in my former church. We were KJV only, so the text was “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

According to our interpretation of that verse, once someone had honestly said a prayer requesting salvation, that person was saved eternally, no matter the conduct following later in life.

 

[aidanbradypop]

John 10:28 was the quote used in my former church. We were KJV only, so the text was “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

According to our interpretation of that verse, once someone had honestly said a prayer requesting salvation, that person was saved eternally, no matter the conduct following later in life.

We shall not perish if we do as we are told. We perish when we do not repent of our sins and turn away from God.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

 

[Telestia]

Telestia…I was saved by my baptism…I am being saved everyday by the Sacraments…and my hope in salvation is only a guarantee if I persevere to the end. That is where I stand.

Okay.

I am saved by the blood of the Perfect Paschal Lamb of God, one blood atonement for all time, whose blood shed on the cross washes away all my sins - Past, present, and future. And I am grateful, and I love HIM and HE me.

He tells me words of love,
Every Day these words,
And this does something to me.

He has entered my heart,
With a happiness,
Of which I know the cause,

It’s Him for me, and me for Him, in my life,
He tells me this, everyday, of my life,

And these things become apparent,
Then I sense in me,
my beating heart.

I thought that love was just a word
They sang about in songs I heard
It took Jesus death to reveal
That I was wrong and love is real

 

[Anna_Scott]

Isaiah45,


You made me laugh.

Actually, the thread topic is a serious one. It’s just that it has been discussed about a million times. I have to keep in mind that many have not had the discussion before.

Anna

 

[aidanbradypop]

Isaiah45,


You made me laugh.

Actually, the thread topic is a serious one. It’s just that it has been discussed about a million times. I have to keep in mind that many have not had the discussion before.

Anna

Eat your and let us talk lol.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Isaiah45,


You made me laugh.

Actually, the thread topic is a serious one. It’s just that it has been discussed about a million times. I have to keep in mind that many have not had the discussion before.

Anna

Thanks for being a good sport Anna!

It is serious. I have come to realize that in God’s knowledge Salvation is in an instant. However, in human knowledge He gave us an amazing gift for us to handle the complexity of His mysteries…

[bibledrb]Hebrews 11:1[/bibledrb]

We just need to watch out for our Faith to not be alone

Peace.

 

[SteveVH]

Okay.

I am saved by the blood of the Perfect Paschal Lamb of God, one blood atonement for all time, whose blood shed on the cross washes away all my sins - Past, present, and future. And I am grateful, and I love HIM and HE me.

Telestia, do you believe it is possible for a person to sincerely ask Jesus into their lives and then at a later date, maybe much later, abandon all hope in God and turn away from him? We have testimonies of many people on this very forum who left their faith to believe in no God at all. It is a reality in some people’s lives. So how can you be sure that anyone is saved, including yourself?

Conversion, the act of turning away from sin and toward God, is a daily, lifelong process. We must persevere, as Paul reminds us, and finish the race.

 

[batman1973]

I’m beginning to suspect that aidanbradypop is on here just to point out what he/she sees as fallicies in Protestantism. Almost all threads are anti-protestant. Disappointing.

 

[zz912]

I am saved by the blood of the Perfect Paschal Lamb of God, one blood atonement for all time, whose blood shed on the cross washes away all my sins - Past, present, and future. And I am grateful, and I love HIM and HE me.

Are you able to refuse to pick up your cross daily? What would happen if you should refuse to do so?

Are you able to refuse to take care of your family? What would happen if you should refuse to do so?

Are you able to refuse to forgive others? What would happen if you should refuse to do so?

 

[jrtrent]

Telestia…I was saved by my baptism…I am being saved everyday by the Sacraments…and my hope in salvation is only a guarantee if I persevere to the end. That is where I stand.

But did Telestia answer your question? You had originally asked why some Protestants believe in the perseverance of the saints. As Telestia’s quotes show, it’s a question of sovereignty–is God sovereign in salvation or is man? As with other questions Protestants divide over, there is scriptural evidence that can be brought to bear both in favor of and against the doctrines of grace, including perseverance of the saints. I know you don’t want to go to Calvinist sites to see their arguments, but here is a short summary of where Calvinists stand on this issue:

Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God’s hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God’s stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the “last day” (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ’s promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect. reformed.org/calvinism/

 

[Arthropod]

Are you able to refuse to pick up your cross daily? What would happen if you should refuse to do so?

Are you able to refuse to take care of your family? What would happen if you should refuse to do so?

Are you able to refuse to forgive others? What would happen if you should refuse to do so?

Then you don’t love Christ, and are therefore not saved. Christ stated (promised?) that if we love him we will obey his commandments.

As one of the reformers said, we are saved through faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

 

[Nan_S]

Well, the man who “received” this doctrine (on the toilet, by his own admission) told his adherents to “be a sinner and sin boldly but let your trust in Christ be stronger.”

Human nature being fallen as it is, it should not be surprising that this error is so appealing to people.

In making that declaration he committed a far bigger sin against the Holy Spirit - the sin of presumption upon the mercy of God.

While there is no sin so big that God can not forgive it, you still need to approach God with a repentant heart. Taking His mercy for granted and sinning “boldly” while expecting to be forgiven doesn’t do that, not even when your belief in the power of God is strong enough to call on His name to save others.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

This is a huge topic, coming, as it does, as the last of the five points of Calvinism and flowing logically from those that precede it. The best book on the subject that I know of is The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner.

Calvinism and predestination put an entirely different twist on the “sin boldly” concept. If you’re predestined for heaven, you might just as well “sin boldly” now because God has also predestined you to live long enough to be reconciled boldly to Him before you die, even though you can’t forsee when that will happen while you’re busy enjoying your sins.

And if you’re NOT predestined for heaven, you can also “sin boldly” now because all the righteous penitence in the world won’t get around the fact that your never got issued a ticket to heaven in the first place.

So if predestination is true, the whole world can live in debauchery. Now that’s really twisted.

 

[Porknpie]

This is a huge topic, coming, as it does, as the last of the five points of Calvinism and flowing logically from those that precede it. The best book on the subject that I know of is The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner.

:banghead: :bigyikes: :hypno: :coolinoff:

JR -

Boettner was long discredited by Karl Keating…put Michael Barber’s book on hold and read this one first:

Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating

shop.catholic.com/books-1/apologetics/catholicism-and-fundamentalism.html
Then read Barber…

Seriously.

 

[JustaServant]

OSAS started from Calvinism. Although Calvinists disown it.
A person can show no fruit in his or her Christian life because of the ‘event’ of salvation when they got their lifeboat out of Hell and their ticket to Heaven. This ‘event’ is sealed and the Christian is “Once saved always saved”. What happens? I lose my fear of God. Why must I live a holy life? Why get upset over sin? The ‘event’ made me right. It creates a spiritual laziness. A presumption.
It creates a dilemma that must be explained. The Christian who “Falls away”.
In order to explain a “Christian” who falls into sin or has no spiritual fruit, they come up with another phrase: “never saved in the first place”. (NSITFP)
The ‘event’ really didn’t happen and must be replaced with a genuine ‘event’.
It is the ‘event’ that is at the heart of it all.
The foundation for many who accept OSAS is a fear of falling away. If salvation is a ‘one time “crisis” “event”’ that is in the past tense, and I believe I can never fall away because God said so (or putting words into God’s mouth) than I can never be convinced otherwise. To think otherwise is to doubt God.
Once I 'know 'I’m as ‘sure for Heaven as Jesus’, (actually heard a preacher say that once) I sit on my laurels and pretty much do nothing. Good works? Why? I’m heading for Heaven. It stifles any good done on this earth the end has already been decided.
IF HOWEVER, my entire foundation of salvation is incorrect, (a process, not a one-time event), than what the believer in OSAS is shaken. The whole house of cards comes crashing down.

 

[JustaServant]

I would like to know why our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ believe this. When I was Protestant, I never bought into the idea.

Not all Protestants believe in OSAS.
OSAS is more of an evangelical/fundamentalist doctrine that arose in the last century.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I’m beginning to suspect that aidanbradypop is on here just to point out what he/she sees as fallicies in Protestantism. Almost all threads are anti-protestant. Disappointing.

I am sorry you feel that way batman. I enjoy a good conversation and believe that if someone believes in something, they should be able to provide evidence in support for it. That’s all. Nothing more—nothing less. You must not have looked at “all” my threads. I invite you to do so. I have many threads.

Do you not feel these issues merit conversation? How else are we supposed to understand one another’s beliefs? I control how people respond in my threads just about as much as you control if it rains or not.

Not all Protestants believe in OSAS.
OSAS is more of an evangelical/fundamentalist doctrine that arose in the last century.

Yes that is true. I have found that the majority of Christianity does not subscribe to that doctrine, but it is interesting as to why some denominations do.