Evidence for Once Saved Always Saved?

[Christian_Unity]

You would be correct, but not in the way you think. Catholics do not understand predestination in the same manner as a Calvinist. But predestination, from the standpoint of it being based upon God’s foreknowledge of our response to his grace is the basic Catholic position as far as I know. I certainly do not claim to be an expert on this issue but the Catholic Encyclopedia covers it in great detail.

I would challenge you to read the Catholic link. Just like Protestantism, Catholic theology has two views on foreknown.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html

Here are the two basic premises a Catholic must hold, as I understand them.

Premise one, God’s predestination of efficacious and gratuitous grace.

1. Man cannot be saved without the efficacious and gratuitous grace given by God alone. The elect that God chooses are not chosen because God foresees how the elect will respond to His grace, but because of His grace alone. The Council of Trent tells us that the gift of final perseverance cannot be obtained or merited, but it is given by God as a gift. Complete predestination, which includes first grace, as well as a series of graces up until glorification, is gratuitous and is chosen by God previous to foreseen merits. It is not based upon God’s foreknowledge. Finally no man can boast of being better than another, because it is God’s grace only that can elevate man to being better than another, not one’s own choices or works. If we say that we choose or act better than another apart from God’s grace, and as a result we are saved because of that choice or act, then we surely will be able to boast that we are better than another.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote, " It is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him toward salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even preparation for grace."

Canon 20 Council of Orange.
“That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.”

Even prayer is a gift from God.

Council of Orange Canon 3.
“If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me” (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).”

 

[aidanbradypop]

I would challenge you to read the Catholic link. Just like Protestantism, Catholic theology has two views on foreknown.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html

Here are the two basic premises a Catholic must hold, as I understand them.

Premise one, God’s predestination of efficacious and gratuitous grace.

1. Man cannot be saved without the efficacious and gratuitous grace given by God alone. The elect that God chooses are not chosen because God foresees how the elect will respond to His grace, but because of His grace alone. The Council of Trent tells us that the gift of final perseverance cannot be obtained or merited, but it is given by God as a gift. Complete predestination, which includes first grace, as well as a series of graces up until glorification, is gratuitous and is chosen by God previous to foreseen merits. It is not based upon God’s foreknowledge. Finally no man can boast of being better than another, because it is God’s grace only that can elevate man to being better than another, not one’s own choices or works. If we say that we choose or act better than another apart from God’s grace, and as a result we are saved because of that choice or act, then we surely will be able to boast that we are better than another.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote, " It is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him toward salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even preparation for grace."

Canon 20 Council of Orange.
“That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.”

Even prayer is a gift from God.

Council of Orange Canon 3.
“If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me” (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).”

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[SteveVH]

I would challenge you to read the Catholic link. Just like Protestantism, Catholic theology has two views on foreknown.

Yes, I am aware of that. Did you see that I agreed?

 

[Arthropod]

Neither of those verses states that salvation is a one time event, Arthropod.

St. Dismas, (the Good Thief) was saved, clearly, but no one knows what would have happened to him had he declared Jesus to be Lord and savior, but later sinned.

If he had been given the opportunity to sin, then his salvation is not assured.

He did have the opportunity to sin. He could have changed his mind right there and then and cursed Christ again, unless you want to argue that he died the instant after Christ told him he would be in paradise.

And read the second quote again, it says “saved”.

 

[Arthropod]

I would like to expand on your post a bit if I may and say that Christ told the Good Thief that you will be with me in “Paradise.” The debate about what paradise means is ongoing. Is paradise Purgatory or The Kingdom of God? Who really knows, but I believe the Good Thief professed his love for Christ and will be reward for that but will also be judged on his life as well. We all are held accountable for our actions.

Unless PRmerger is wrong in calling him a saint, he didn’t end up in purgatory.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Unless PRmerger is wrong in calling him a saint, he didn’t end up in purgatory.

So you can see where people go after death? Am I going to Heaven or Hell?

 

[PRmerger]

Unless PRmerger is wrong in calling him a saint, he didn’t end up in purgatory.

I am confused by this comment.

What is it about purgatory that makes you think it’s inconsistent with sainthood?

 

[PRmerger]

He did have the opportunity to sin. He could have changed his mind right there and then and cursed Christ again, unless you want to argue that he died the instant after Christ told him he would be in paradise.

No one is arguing the above.

The point is: if someone accepts Christ as his savior, and then rejects him later, he will not be saved.

And read the second quote again, it says “saved”.

Certainly. But it doesn’t say “once he’s saved, he’s always saved.”

If he becomes an atheist, then he rejects the invitation and God will never force Himself upon someone who finds Him so odious.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Telestia;

We share the gospel of Jesus with all peoples so that His Children will hear His voice, and they will come to Him. We do not know who they are, but when they hear Jesus’s teachings, His words, they will recognize Him and they will come to Him. So we must honor the Great Commision and take the Gospel to all peoples on the earth.

Hmm…this means that God planted the predestined only in those times and places that the Gospel would be taken. The Gospel did not come to the Americas until 1500, so obviously for all those centuries the Native Americans were not predestined or elect. And this applies to the peoples in the vast geographic areas of Asia, Australia, and Africa as well. For many generations the predistined seem to have been concentrated in Europe and the Mediteranean.

So, if you did not live in the right time and place, God did not predestine you! God is ethnically and chronologically biased.

 

[mackbrislawn]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Obviously, then, whoever does not believe in him shall not have everlasting life. It follows that whoever quits believing in Him will come under that category as well.

And, since we are already all predestined to heaven or hell beforehand, this “whoever” doesn’t mean just anybody, but only those predestined.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

That would run against God’s justice to allow a particular group of people to sin as much as they want without any repercussion.

 

[guanophore]

Wrong.

Anyone, who puts themselves under God’s mercy by calling on the name of the LORD, and accepting the atoning Blood of Jesus, will be saved.

Has it ever occurred to you that deriving doctrine from a single verse may not be appropriate?

How do you explain away other verses that indicate the opposite?

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” so that none of you may be** hardened by the deceitfulness of sin**. 14 For we have become partners of Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

Beyond this, we do not know what will happen in ages to come.

Actually, to presume that you already know so much is a sign of spritual immaturity.

Did you know that when Christians were assembling the Gospels, the book of acts, and the Books/Letters of the New Testament, that the last book to be chosen was to choose which of the two Revelation books that were in circulation: The Apocalypse of John, or the Apocalypse of Peter.  John’s Apocalypse received two more votes than did Peter’s.

What gave anyone the authority to “vote” about which books belong in the NT?

 Had Peter’s Apocalypse been chosen, our Theology as who will be saved would have been everyone eventually gets saved.  In Fact, from the New Testament letter by the Apostle Peter, **1 Peter 18-20, Peter states:**

Perhaps you did not realize that it was the One Faith, kept preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit, that guided the choices of the books for the NT. The criteria was which books were consistent with the Teaching of the Apostles. The faith did not come to us extracted out of the pages, as it does to you, but through the preaching of the Apostles.

The One Faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written.

 when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

A reference to how we are saved through the waters of baptism.

 When people give up their foolish ways, and put themselves under God’s mercy, good things happen to them. They go from death to life. There are ages to come, let’s not make rash assessments of who is saved and not saved in our limited understanding. Let God be God..

What an odd thing to say, after all the posts you have made to the contrary.

Let us be kind and mercyful to all. Let God be the Judge.

Are you willing to apply the same criteria to yourself? Can you let God be the judge of you?

Phil 3:12-16

Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are** mature be of the same mind;** and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.

Even our beloved St. Paul did not make assumptions about his salvation.

 

[Arthropod]

I am confused by this comment.

What is it about purgatory that makes you think it’s inconsistent with sainthood?

I was under the impression that to be a saint, you go straight to heaven. Is this not so?

 

[Arthropod]

That would run against God’s justice to allow a particular group of people to sin as much as they want without any repercussion.

If I am correct in thinking you are replying to the post above yours . . . .

No, absolutely not, it does not mean that! You assume that it is possible to truly believe AND live a life completly characterised by sin at the same time.

The idea is that people who truly believe also experience sanctification.

And this is the bible, the inspired Word of God. Who are you to dismiss it because it doesn’t fit in your theology?

 

[PRmerger]

I was under the impression that to be a saint, you go straight to heaven. Is this not so?

No, this is incorrect.

A saint is anyone who is in heaven.

Knowledge of whether they passed through purgatory first is beyond our pay grade.

Thus, it’s entirely possible that St. Dismas went through purgatory first. In fact, as Jesus said that today he would be in paradise with Jesus, and we know that Jesus did not enter paradise “today”, it appears that St. Dismas went somewhere else until Jesus opened the gates of heaven and returned in triumph.

 

[PRmerger]

IYou assume that it is possible to truly believe AND live a life completly characterised by sin at the same time.

Are you of the opinion that its impossible to truly believe and sin at some points in one’s faith journey?

Do you believe that St. Peter, who sinned grievously against our Lord during His last days, was not a Believer during Jesus’ first 3 years of ministry?

 

[Arthropod]

No one is arguing the above.

The point is: if someone accepts Christ as his savior, and then rejects him later, he will not be saved.

Certainly. But it doesn’t say “once he’s saved, he’s always saved.”

If he becomes an atheist, then he rejects the invitation and God will never force Himself upon someone who finds Him so odious.

But the question is, was someone who appears to accept Christ as his savior, and later rejects him really saved in the first place?
1 John:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may *know *that you have eternal life.

 

[dshix]

But the question is, was someone who appears to accept Christ as his savior, and later rejects him really saved in the first place?

If a person accepts Christ and then dies, they would go to Heaven. If they accept him, later reject him, and then die, they go to Hell.

To ask if a person is “saved in the first place” is irrelevant. “Saved” doesn’t become past tense until you die. Up until then, our lives are a constant process of staying in good stand with God until our death, and then if we have passed the test, we are THEN saved.

 

[Arthropod]

Are you of the opinion that its impossible to truly believe and sin at some points in one’s faith journey?

Do you believe that St. Peter, who sinned grievously against our Lord during His last days, was not a Believer during Jesus’ first 3 years of ministry?

I did not say that. I said a life characterised by sin. A life in which repentance does not take place.

And anyway, the bible said it, not I:
1 John:

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John:

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

 

[benjohnson]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Obviously, then, whoever does not believe in him shall not have everlasting life. It follows that whoever quits believing in Him will come under that category as well.

For what it’s worth, Lutherans read that differently, in that God has given us very clear instructions on salvation and as such we proclaim the Gospel as loudly as possible to draw others to Him.

But that doesn’t necessarily proscribe that God may or may-not save others as He sees fit and by his love and grace.

He has given us his promises, and we hold fast to them as we are able, but He has never told us that we are to only find ourselves alone in heaven.