In debate or discussion, you should always define terms. What I mean by God with a capital G is http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm. The bible quotations are referring to god with a little g. They were judges who administrated the law this function made them, in a sense, “gods” because they represented God.
Frustrations will always be there. It is from within and from without the CHURCH. And it think you would agree that your frustrations would be greater if you would see dissenting views from within, ‘coz i’ve seen them. But it is the way we handle all our frustrations that matters. We can take Jesus’ way or some other way. I think you know which one to take. When it comes to apologies, I think we as Catholics should if we have hurt someone. The apology is not for saying the truth but for not saying the truth in a charitable way, although i do recognize that our words here in this forum don’t speak and is unrecognizable as charitable and uncharitable. Apologizing takes a lot of humility and I think we can take a great example from out late Holy Father.
Yes, I do believe that. But I know that God never left us orphans in this world. He left us a guide, a visible guide, the one who we can turn to when it comes to these matters and infallibly guide us to the truth. But I know that to be able to see the truth, we need GRACE. It is the grace of God that allows us to see all these things. God showers us, both RCC and LDS and other people too, equally with HIS grace. All we need to do is cooperate with it.
Was Joseph Smith baptized in any Christian religion before he had these visions?I don’t have that knowledge with a college education and 62 years beneath my belt, so how could it be easy for a 24 year old with 3 years formal education to have this knowledge in his head and be able to write without script to copy? Why would that many people collaborate with this guy, if they were not believers and had not seen the plates? You are giving too much credit to man, and are not thinking of the times and places where this took place. You dismiss the testimony of 11 witnesses who actually handled the plates and testified of such, even after some of them left the church. Not a good argument, you will have to do better to make your point. I know you will say anything to disprove it, just because you are Catholic. Yet you believe that statues cry real tears and bleed real blood. How far-fetched is that?
BJ
Very far fetched. Oh so far fetched. In fact it is so far fetched that a statue would shed tears and blood, that it takes the Vatican years to say that there is nothing contrary to the faith in reverence for the statue. It is so far fetched that the Vatican never says we have to believe the statue shed tears. But not as far fetched as the Mormons insisting we believe the Book of Mormon as truth.I don’t have that knowledge with a college education and 62 years beneath my belt, so how could it be easy for a 24 year old with 3 years formal education to have this knowledge in his head and be able to write without script to copy? Why would that many people collaborate with this guy, if they were not believers and had not seen the plates? You are giving too much credit to man, and are not thinking of the times and places where this took place. You dismiss the testimony of 11 witnesses who actually handled the plates and testified of such, even after some of them left the church. Not a good argument, you will have to do better to make your point. I know you will say anything to disprove it, just because you are Catholic. Yet you believe that statues cry real tears and bleed real blood. How far-fetched is that?
First of all Jerusha,
BJ
Thank you Jerusha, After reading some of these threads, it seems the whites got the worst of it, but it also reads like any settlers who had Indian problems and did not know how to stay alive without fighting for their lives. I am watching the TV series on TNT called “Into the West” It really brings to life the trials and injustices suffered by settlers and Indians alike. Mormons were not the only ones settling the west and dealing with the inherant dangers. There are many positive, good stories also, if you care to find them. Just as there are good stories about the Catholics settling Mexico, and California among the murderous ones. It is so with any movement to settle a new country. You will find these kinds of stories throughout the Bible and throughout history. Do the Romans apologize for conquering most of the world as in the Roman Empire? Do the British apologize for conquering the lands that made up the British Empire? Do you pretend to know what it is like to travel by oxcart with all of your earthly belongings to a fierce new land and battle the extremes of weather, terrain, and disease, not to mention attacking Indians. Who were trying to keep their land from being settled by Whites. That is the beginnings of America, but also the beginnings of many nations throughout the history of the world. You will be apologizing for the rest of your life for what your ancestors and mine may have done, but it will not change the world and it cannot bring back what was originally here. Do you think we should stop progress and give everything back to the Indians? You first.
BJI have one ancestor who was of New Amsterdam Dutch heritage. I am ashamed of the racism they were involved in, but my g’randfather turned away from it by marrying an Indian woman, and being a good husband to her. I have no need to apologize for what my ancestors did, no-one does, so long as they reject the mistakes they made.
And I am sure you know nothing about the land-fraud committed by the Mormons on a Sac & Fox tribe just across the river from Nauvoo-- a sad, mere ten years after Bad Axe. You church has done a FINE job of covering that one up.
I am sorry for causing you so much stress over the history of the American Indian. I can understand the pain you must feel over the things your ancestors suffered, but my ancestors all the way back to Charlemagne suffered various agonies and I do not carry it with me in such a way. Think of the Bataan Death march and what the Japanese did to those men, and the atrocities being committed by man upon man this very day all over the world. It is permitted to happen, so that these people will pay for their sins in the hereafter. It is not up to you to judge who committed the greater sin upon mankind over the time since creation. It is up to God to judge, and he will believe me. These people will not get away with what they have done. They can not lie to God. There are things much worse than death, and they will find out the wrath of God is much worse. Again, I am sorry for any pain I caused you personally in your particular situation. I had no way of knowing.Yes, I am not angry at either of you personally.
BJ