One problem with your argument…you use the BoM as proof that ancient Israelite peoples came to America. However, you have yet to prove that the BoM is a truly accurate account. So why would we accept an assertion based on a book we don’t see as presenting fact? Also, this the fallacy of affirming the consequent, circular reasoning, and likely begging the question.
Your modern Mormon leadership also claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators, just like Smith.
Me: Yup, entered the RCC Easter Vigil 2002 after nearly twenty years of searching for Christ’s, one, true, Church. Was born into the Jehovah’s Witnesses sect (4th generation), but started to have serious doubts after the 1975 debacle. Started looking into Protestant sects, which led to my official exodus from the JW’s in 1983. Mormon missionaries came to my door in 1987 and they started a weekly visit that was to continue with many other subsequent missionary pairs. Thanks to the Mormon missionaries I began to take the issue of proper authority serious for the first time, and quickly came to realize that if the Catholic Church had lost it’s authority, then none of the Protestant sects that came into being as a result of the Reformation had any authority, so I narrowed my search down to the RCC, CoJCoLDS, and Bahai faith. 15,000+ books later (1,700+ LDS related), and hundreds of hours of research and prayer, I entered the RCC.
Welcome home brother!
Aside from the feat of reading over 2 books a day for the past couple decades (I assume you’re exaggerating), I’m curious as to why you don’t point out how “all” the problems with the BoM have solid rebuttals when the Mormons here haven’t been able to show them. I’m sure they’d like to know, too.
I think you’re missing the big picture here. Comparing the results of Biblical archeology with BoM archeology reveals a huge disparity in both the amount and quality of supportive evidence. I’m not sure what recent evidence you’re talking about which disputes much of the Biblical record, but let’s be reasonable here. The Middle East is teeming with physical, verifiable evidence of Biblical civilizations, culture, writing, architecture, you name it.
I don’t think the jury is in on these “startling bulls-eyes” as you put it. Carefully examine this evidence before you come to such a conclusion. If you truly believe they have found such a thing, you better rush down to the nearest LDS stake center for your baptism.
Me: 2005 – 1975 = 30 years . Now, with that said, I own well over 15,000 books; many are strictly reference works that I have not read cover-to-cover, but I think I can safely say I have read at least 75% of the books in my library (I average 3-5 books a week). What can I say, I love books, and I love to read. (BTW, a frequent poster on this message board, TomNosser, recently visited my home; if you still have doubts ask him.)
Me: I am not an LDS apologist; why in the world would you want me to spend my time disseminating the LDS evidences I have acquired? With that said, before my conversion to the RCC, I did write a couple of reviews that have been published by LDS apologetic organizations (FARMS and FAIR); you can find the reviews at the following sites:
For what its worth, I doubt Augustine is exaggerating. I lurk on other boards and A’s writings show that he has an “obscene” amount of knowledge relevant to mormonism. That’s the word we only give out to those who reach the Hugh Nibley stratosphereAside from the feat of reading over 2 books a day for the past couple decades (I assume you’re exaggerating), I’m curious as to why you don’t point out how “all” the problems with the BoM have solid rebuttals when the Mormons here haven’t been able to show them. I’m sure they’d like to know, too.
.Me: The issue of the so-called “Great Apostasy”. After reading the BoM six times and not receiving a “testimony” (either way), I came to the position that the burden of proof lies with the CoJCoLDS; they must decisively demonstrate that a “total” apostasy had occurred (total in the sense that God removed the keys of authority from the early Church). My studies had led me to the conclusion that such an apostasy had to have occurred before the end of the first century (a view which is, interestingly enough, now becoming the dominant view among current LDS scholars – for a good example see: http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2004_06_15_Reynolds.htm). So my question became: What did the first century Christians do that was so evil that God removed His keys of authority? To date, I have found the LDS responses to this all-important question wanting.
It’s more valuable to give reasons why you think arguments are right are wrong than just giving your opinion of them in general. If you’re going to post, make it worthwhile.
Me: Yes sir .
Me: Are you really interested in “the truth”? Or, are you merely interested in better anti-Mormon arguments?
AugustineH354 said:
So you don’t have specific issues with the BoM, but more with the actual church? Did I read that right?
I know this wasn’t directed at me…but my answer is no. There’s more to it than just 5 proofs for or against the BoM. There’s the other scriptures, church history, doctrines, etc.
I was not accurate in saying heard. Actually I read it in a book that documented this. It also documented that Joseph Smith was tried and convicted, I believe fraud was the charge, for saying he could find hidden treasure by looking into seer stones in New York.
Your original post said “read”, I think C. was just using “heard” loosely. Do you remember the name of the book? I looked around and found a quote many anti-mormon sites try to make a point that sounds like yours:
If this is the right quote, it can’t be used to show the that 8 witnesses only saw the plates while covered up. That is because 1) William Smith is not one of the eight witnesses and 2) he is obviously talking about a different experience. 3) Samuel, Hyrum, and Joseph Sr. were among the 8 witnesses and here is their testimony:
Even if books against mormonism are well documented, it is a pretty safe bet that they aren’t telling you everything you should know. I am pleased you asked about it so you can get both sides!
Joseph Smith had a preliminary hearing regarding his treasure seeking activities but the justice of the peace decided not to hold a trial, i.e., he was acquited.