Evidence for or against "The Book Of Mormon".

[BJ_Colbert]

iwonder:

Oh, if you look back at my previous posts, you will see the answer is yes. At least, I tried over and over again. I was after all in a Mormon foster home, complete with family home evenings every Wednesday.
Lovely people, until it came to religion. Then all of this stuff, just like on your favorite website whyprophet.com and I quote " the Church is mouth of the beast" etc. etc.
I understand better, now that you have reminded me what kind of absolute trash you read on your own websites, why you and B.J. act the way you do. I may forgive you, but I am only me. But the fundamental attitude toward the Catholic Church, your obsession with the number 666, presents a lack of goodness or at least not goodness in it’s fullness. It’s really not your fault. I understand that.
But actually that old saying you are what you eat has some truth and if you insist on filling yourselves up with the nonsense on whyprophet.com, well, that’s up to you. And your responsibility, fault or not.

What is 666? That is the first time I saw it in these threads. whyprophet.com was put in here by a Catholic, I never new about it before this forum. What have I said that caused you to think I am against Catholics. I have done nothing but apologize for anything you think I said to offend you. I have not said you are bigoted or anything of the sort. Tdknick pointed out some very clear falsehoods about that website and I agree with him and told you so. I also told Wademann not to put any faith in it except as another view that we had never heard before. There are many holes in it as there are many holes in the anti-mormon sites that you quote. I suggest you re-read my posts and point out to me exactly what I said that offended you. I will take a look and see what it is that I can say to make ammends to you for your anger. Please tell me, what the anger is about? I simply believe different than you do and we are trying to understand one another’s point of view. It does no good to call names and be angry. Now, please go back and point out my namecalling of you and your Church. I am sorry, but it has been the other way around. Plus, Family Home Evening is on Monday, not Wednesday. Ha, just a little humor there, lighten up and be happy. God loves you and me. BJ

 

[iwonder]

BJ Colbert:

What is 666? That is the first time I saw it in these threads. whyprophet.com was put in here by a Catholic, I never new about it before this forum. What have I said that caused you to think I am against Catholics. I have done nothing but apologize for anything you think I said to offend you. I have not said you are bigoted or anything of the sort. Tdknick pointed out some very clear falsehoods about that website and I agree with him and told you so. I also told Wademann not to put any faith in it except as another view that we had never heard before. There are many holes in it as there are many holes in the anti-mormon sites that you quote. I suggest you re-read my posts and point out to me exactly what I said that offended you. I will take a look and see what it is that I can say to make ammends to you for your anger. Please tell me, what the anger is about? I simply believe different than you do and we are trying to understand one another’s point of view. It does no good to call names and be angry. Now, please go back and point out my namecalling of you and your Church. I am sorry, but it has been the other way around. Plus, Family Home Evening is on Monday, not Wednesday. Ha, just a little humor there, lighten up and be happy. God loves you and me. BJ

No, B.J., in the Oakland, Ca. ward of 1972, family home evening was on Wednesday. And you have repeatedly sent us off to websites that are obscene in their hatred of our Church. Try once in a while to tell the truth will you?

 

[Casen]

Not that it matters much but it was 1970 when Monday was designated as Family Home Evening Churchwide by the First Presidency and they declared that on that evening no competing ecclesiastical functions were to be held.

 

[iwonder]

Casen:

Not that it matters much but it was 1970 when Monday was designated as Family Home Evening Churchwide by the First Presidency and they declared that on that evening no competing ecclesiastical functions were to be held.

Not that it matters much, but we held family home evenings on Wednesday in 1972 in the my foster home. Not that it matters much, but I do not want to argue with you about what my foster parents did. They were very sweet kind people, who never, even with their extreme prejudice toward Catholics, ever treated my Church verbally with the contempt you, B.J. and Wademann have.
Not that it matters much, but the family home evenings at my foster parents are well documented in the Alameda County Court Papers. Why? Because they interfered with the practice of my own religion and would not let me attend Mass. Social Services had to get involved. Not that it matters much.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

iwonder:

No, B.J., in the Oakland, Ca. ward of 1972, family home evening was on Wednesday. And you have repeatedly sent us off to websites that are obscene in their hatred of our Church. Try once in a while to tell the truth will you?

OK in your home it was on Wednesday and I think it was not a good thing for your foster parents to keep you from your own church activities.
Name one website I have sent you off to…I don’t even know any websites except this one and lds.org and then that one that was recommended by the Catholic guy and we all looked at it and decided it wasn’t exactly unbiased so we trashed it. I have repeatedly told you it was not me who told anyone to read it and tdknick told me it was flawed. So I never looked again. Apparently you did to find beasts and 666s in it. Wow glad I didn’t see all of that it scares me to see you obsessing on it and I would not want all that trash in my mind. So say your rosary and get it out of you mind. I love you and so does your Father in Heaven. Just be calm and say some prayers. God bless you, and good night…BJ

 

[Jerusha]

BJ, Wademan, this is my last post on this subforum, because I know that you and your kind deny reality despite repeated and repeated attempts. It is useless.

Here are two books I recommend. They are downright scary.

In Mormon Circles : Gentiles, Jack Mormons, and Latter-Day Saints
Coates, James.

A Gathering of Saints : a True Story of Money, Murder, and Deceit
Lindsey, Robert.

And, BJ=Bogus Joe, and you know it.

BJ, your husband would be better off divorcing you, and admitting that he made the same mistake twice, if, indeed, your story is true.

 

[Casen]

I haven’t read A Gathering of Saints but the Coates book is pretty worthless. If this is the stuff you read I can understand your hostility. If someone read the equivalent anti-catholic books they might become equally hostile towards Catholicism.

Anyway, here’s a non-LDS editorial review of James Coates book:

From Library Journal
*Books about Mormons tend to be either hostile or cloying–few are dispassionate. Coates, an investigative reporter for The Chicago Tribune , is clearly seeking his scoop, but his tone betrays a hostility that suggests a hidden agenda. Unfortunately, he does not spell out his biases (which, after all, may be legitimate) as he tells the history of the Mormon church and assesses its current situation. In fact, while at times it appears that he wants the reader to be surprised by what he has found, mostly what he has found is common knowledge. *

• David Azzolina, Univ. of Pennsylvania Libs., Philadelphia
  Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc.

 

[pmcd]

Hi!

I’m affraid this arguement has lasted too long and I’m sorry for any hard feelings any of you have against each other now. I would like to say one thing to each of you (BJ and Jerusha). First to Jerusha:

I know I am LDS and I know you hate us. Why? There is no reason to do so and you know that. And btw: If you were a real christian you’d know there can be no resentment nor lasting anger towards anyone no matter where he/she’s from or what religion/belief they have. Not even the grace of the Lord will save you from that. Because it is quoted (rather often I believe) that “by their works ye shall know them”. Look it up in the Bible if you don’t trust the book of momon (Isaiah’s full of really good material concerning such debates as above but Revelation gives it a good run, too.) I have a lot of respect for the catholic church and for those that are strong members (such as yourself I think). You may not call us hypocrits because there is not one single shred of 100% proof against any of our teachings. (Take missionary discussions before arguing.) The insidents listed by you above are very true. I have never had it easy in my life because my father is a total anti-mormon. He’s taught me to view things from a general perspective and so I do. I do not argue vehemently for my church and I do not contradict vehemently other churches. This is, by the way, one of the principles of our belief. I am affraid you have been lead onto a very bad path of church-history because it IS in fact true that those times weren’t exactly clear-vision times. Fact is: there have been no incidents whatsoever concerning active and true members of our religion. Fact is also that those who speak about things supposedly having been done or supposeldy going on right now (for instance polligamy) are all non-members, are excomunicated or now call themselves “mormons” under false pretens and actually do believe they are faithful members. There are groups you may look up that call themselves members of “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” and they are sects. This is an undeniable fact. Over the last three years I have read pro-mormon and anti-mormon litterature and nothing has been convincing enough to make me doubt for one second my beliefs. Therefor no matter what goes through your mind my right prevails that there will be no “hypocriting” me. I will neither mention any of the insidents that have brought the catholic name into bad light over almost 1700 years, since its >>creation<<. Our church tries neither to hide anything that has gone wrong in the past neither does it try to obscure in any way its dealings with others. But what we have not done wrong we cannot excuse and it is now left to you to believe these words or not. I have merely stated tangible facts that neither you nor God can deny. I appologize for any mis-read, falsely-stated or corrupted material you have seen, heard and read about.
Best wishes,
pmcd

Now BJ:
I am affraid these arguements are of no avail to anyone who is a strong believer such as Jerusha. I have experienced (in much, much less time than 60 some-odd years) that it isn’t very wise to argue with any other religion (especially the catholic one). They are a very well-organized church. We can stand up for what we believe in but we cannot fight what we cannot win. Generally speaking, they are set in their ways (at least the active parties). You shouldn’t try to convince anyone. Conviction comes of oneself and is (in many cases) increased by confrontation with opposition. It’s still admireable that you have such a strong testimony of the truth.
Kind Regards,
pmcd

 

[Jerusha]

*In fact, while at times it appears that he wants the reader to be surprised by what he has found, mostly what he has found is common knowledge. *

:yup: Thank you. Worth a read for those who mistrust their own observations.

I know I am LDS and I know you hate us. Why? There is no reason to do so and you know that.

I do not hate you for being LDS. And I have plenty of reason to mistrust LDS culture for its hereditary resentments and covering up of the historical truth.

 

[iwonder]

:yup: Thank you. Worth a read for those who mistrust their own observations.

I do not hate you for being LDS. And I have plenty of reason to mistrust LDS culture for its hereditary resentments and covering up of the historical truth.

Jerusha- You have made some very good points about the relationship between LDS and the Native American Indians. Perhaps you should stick with that topic in a seperate thread as it has profound implications. Native American culture has been impacted repeatedly by Western Civilization religions, not just LDS, and deserves it’s own forum in my opinion. But that’s just my opinion.
I do know that on the worldwide scale, my visits to the Jewish synagogue were quite enlightening. They had absolutely no intention of arguing religion with me. They were concerned only with garnering support systems to avoid ever facing a type of Nazism again. From that purely political view, we were able to make actual legislative progress in Congress, rather than argue the merits of Catholicism vs. Judaism. Start a forum on your topic. See where it goes.

 

[Jerusha]

I am presently watching two threads in the apologetics area of interest (KofC and Earth). I think that will suffice. I’d rather let my addressing those issues be scattered.

I do know that on the worldwide scale, my visits to the Jewish synagogue were quite enlightening. They had absolutely no intention of arguing religion with me. They were concerned only with garnering support systems to avoid ever facing a type of Nazism again.

Again, what a beautiful analogy.

 

[wademann]

Just checking back. Has anyone found any irrefuteable evidence yet?