Evidence for Purgatory please?

[evans77]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

 

[JRKH]

Well - it’s going to depend on what you mean by “hard evidence”…And it will somewhat depend on which bible canon you are referring to.
But here are some things that might help
I Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Here Paul speaks of a cleansing fire, i.e. a purging, at death…and where one might lose some of his works but still be saved. This is neither heaven or hell - but a purging - hence the concept of a place (not heaven and not hell) called Purgatory where this purgation occurs.
The most definitive evidence of the reality of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:44-46. In this passage Judas Macabee and his men had found, in the bodies of their fallen comrades, “tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the Law forbids the Jews to wear.” As a result, “they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which has been committed might be wholly blotted out…for if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead…Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” This passage shows the practice and attitude of the Jews before the time of Jesus. They PRAYED for their dead and still do today.
cegguam.org/node/73
Now - depending on which bible canon one uses - the above can be said to be hard evidence from Scripture - or one can say it is not…
But all Bibles prior to the reformation had Maccabees in them - so for my money the above is Scriptural.

Further references…
Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 … temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 … God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 … no forgiveness … nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:18-20 … might be purgatory (limbo?).
1 Pet 4:6 … preached to the dead.
Rev 21:27 … nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 … souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 … “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 … sacrifice for the dead. (not in Protestant Bibles)
2 Tim 1:15-18 … prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 … mortal/venial sins

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[RPRPsych]

Great answer!

Some have also cited John 15: 2:

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”

However, most modern Bibles have “prune” rather than “purge” here.

 

[JRKH]

Great answer!

Some have also cited John 15: 2:

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”

However, most modern Bibles have “prune” rather than “purge” here.

Yes - However in this case I would read this as more of an activity going on in this life more so than after death.
Though certainly - once we pass over and are finally purged and made perfect - we will indeed bear much fruit.

Peace
James

 

[Cricket2]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

There is no evidence of purgatory in the Bible. If my memory serves me correctly the idea of purgatory was driven by the writings of St. Augustine. It had something to do with the fact that we are all “stained by sin” and that our death their can be a continued need for purification. Personally I do not belief in purgatory as there is no Biblical evidence. I think it is an idea like Limbo, that came about through the layperson’s need to explain what happened to dead infants or stillborn infants who had no chance to be baptized or to sin. People wanted an explanation because it was hard to accept that such infants could not enter Heaven.

Mortal sin is one in which one of the 10 Commandments is broken and is much more serious than Venial sin. All sin is a great offense to God and needs to be confessed and penance done for this. Blasphemy includes attributing something to God that God has not done or is not responsible for, not just denying Christ or the Holy Spirit. At some point we may all be guilty of this sin and not even realize because it is easy to blame misfortune on God rather then keep in mind that he does not cause this.

 

[MarcoPolo]

There is no evidence of purgatory in the Bible.

This is incorrect, as evidenced herein.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

p.s. If you believe people in heaven do not sin and are pure, fully united with God, and if you believe Christians on earth still sin from time to time, then you also believe in a transforming “purgation” from point A (on earth) to point B (in heaven). Where at point A we are still imperfect and sometimes still sin and at point B we have been fixed in sinlessness as a heavenly being.

 

[marymary1975]

Purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the bible neither Jesus speaks directly about it. Purgatory is deducted implicitly from the Bible. You have been given above se text where the concept is implicit but if you are looking is a statement from Jesus saying that people go to purgatory you won’t find it. However what Jesus did say was that only souls in a state of perfection will enter heaven; and that those that are condemned will go to hell. So what happens to people whose souls are not perfect? They can’t go to hell because Jesus is a just Judge amd it would be completely unfair to send someone to hell who doesn’t deserve condemnation just because you are not perfect. So there has to be a place where souls that are not condemned perfect themselves for heaven. Therefore purgatory is a logically implicit in the words of Jesus.

 

[JRKH]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

Evans -
Not to derail the thread but I feel compelled to point out that - when looking for evidence in the bible - do not forget that, according to Scripture, Jesus gave authority to His Church to bind and loose - whatever. It is the Church which has authority to teach - and to settle matters of dispute over how to read and understand God’s recorded revelation. Something that She has faithfully done for nearly two millenia.

So - When one asks a question such as you have above - one needs to keep in mind that, whether the teaching is scripturally explicit or implicit, we are to be guided by the teachings of God’s Holy Church who’s authority is derived from Christ’s own words and protected by God’s Holy Spirit in matters of faith and morals.

As I say - I’m not trying to derail the thread - but in dealing with Scriptural evidence, this is an important aspect to keep in mind.

Peace
James

 

[marymary1975]

There is no evidence of purgatory in the Bible. If my memory serves me correctly the idea of purgatory was driven by the writings of St. Augustine. It had something to do with the fact that we are all “stained by sin” and that our death their can be a continued need for purification. Personally I do not belief in purgatory as there is no Biblical evidence. I think it is an idea like Limbo, that came about through the layperson’s need to explain what happened to dead infants or stillborn infants who had no chance to be baptized or to sin. People wanted an explanation because it was hard to accept that such infants could not enter Heaven.

Mortal sin is one in which one of the 10 Commandments is broken and is much more serious than Venial sin. All sin is a great offense to God and needs to be confessed and penance done for this. Blasphemy includes attributing something to God that God has not done or is not responsible for, not just denying Christ or the Holy Spirit. At some point we may all be guilty of this sin and not even realize because it is easy to blame misfortune on God rather then keep in mind that he does not cause this.

Purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible but there is evidence that there is a purgatory i.e. how do you explain what happens with humans who do their best trying to live their lives according to the Gospel? If you don’t believe in purgatory that means that all humans go to hell, everybody is condemned and therefore God’s salvation plan makes no sense because no one ever can get saved. Not believing in purgatory is totally contradictory with the whole catholic doctrine.

 

[ClearWater]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

Jesus is the final authority. The man had clearly shown to Jesus, on the cross, just how sorry he was for his sins. Jesus wanted to take him directly to paradise, rather than stopping at purgatory. Jesus has that kind of final authority and chose to be merciful in the extreme.

Just because Christ chose to take him directly to heaven, it doesn’t necessarily mean purgatory doesn’t exist. We are talking about one, very specific case, and some are trying to say…if he takes one person directly to heaven…therefore…he has to take ALL people to heaven. No, logically, that doesn’t necessarily follow.

It’d be like saying something like… I have a car. It’s blue. Therefore, ALL cars must be blue! My car may be blue, but that doesn’t mean ALL cars are blue, because some aren’t!

It just meant that the good thief wasn’t going there, but it doesn’t mean someone else couldn’t.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

By this statement alone you acknowledge a two tier sin system. It’s just you place one in the mortal sin category and we place more.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

Please check out this blog post.

CS Lewis Believed in Purgatory- Rightly So

findingthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/2013/02/cs-lewis-believed-in-purgatory-rightly.html

I’d love your feedback after you read it. I give lots of scriptural evidence to support the idea of Purgatory in a way most Evangelicals could understand.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Also,

If you believe you will be glorified in heaven. No more pain no more sin, and you will be purified of your sins.

Then you believe in Purgatory.

Purgatory is the transition from brokenness to holiness with God.

 

[Steveabrous]

These, in my opinion are the best evidence in the Protestant bible.

Jesus said:

““Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26*** Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.***” Matthew 5:25

Paul said:

" their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day (that’s a persons particular judgement day) will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1st Corinthians 3:13

“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 2 thes. 2:15 ( there are teachings of the Apostles not in the Bible that we are to adhere to.)

 

[Cricket2]

Purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible but there is evidence that there is a purgatory i.e. how do you explain what happens with humans who do their best trying to live their lives according to the Gospel? If you don’t believe in purgatory that means that all humans go to hell, everybody is condemned and therefore God’s salvation plan makes no sense because no one ever can get saved. Not believing in purgatory is totally contradictory with the whole catholic doctrine.

I would not agree. In the concept of purgatory I think most accept it as a separate place than this life, and that of Heaven. Here we are certainly trying our best to live our lives according the Gospel (one hopes), but none of us our perfect at it. However the sacrament of confession, offering our sufferings and works to God all serve to make us ready for Heaven.

On more than one retreat over the last 25 years I have listened to Priests discuss the concepts of Purgatory and Limbo. Purgatory or the notion of it was related to St. Augustine in his “True Confessions” and Limbo to the lay people looking for an answer to were unbaptized infants and children went at death. Of course there discussions were much more detailed.

I believe that we are all subject processes of purification during our lives. These can occur through illness, difficulties in life, moral challenges etc. We are constantly growing and developing in our faith. If there is a purgatory I understand the notion of individuals, perhaps all of us having to go there for a while for further purification, but I really don’t think that is what happens, and this is in part due to my own near death experience as a child.

Of course none of us can really know the entire reality of God in this place. For me our purification happens here on our life’s journey. When we die we either go to eternity with God or to Hell.

 

[Steveabrous]

I would not agree. In the concept of purgatory I think most accept it as a separate place than this life, and that of Heaven. Here we are certainly trying our best to live our lives according the Gospel (one hopes), but none of us our perfect at it. However the sacrament of confession, offering our sufferings and works to God all serve to make us ready for Heaven.

On more than one retreat over the last 25 years I have listened to Priests discuss the concepts of Purgatory and Limbo. Purgatory or the notion of it was related to St. Augustine in his “True Confessions” and Limbo to the lay people looking for an answer to were unbaptized infants and children went at death. Of course there discussions were much more detailed.

I believe that we are all subject processes of purification during our lives. These can occur through illness, difficulties in life, moral challenges etc. We are constantly growing and developing in our faith. If there is a purgatory I understand the notion of individuals, perhaps all of us having to go there for a while for further purification, but I really don’t think that is what happens, and this is in part due to my own near death experience as a child.

Of course none of us can really know the entire reality of God in this place. For me our purification happens here on our life’s journey. When we die we either go to eternity with God or to Hell.

The only thing the Catholic church says about Purgatory is that for those who are saved and not yet perfect they must be purified before entering heaven and this purification we call purgatory. It doesn’t say whether it is a place or process, how long it takes or anything. All of that is conjecture.

 

[Pablopedro]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

Interesting story regarding the penitent thief.

There was no punctuation in the original manuscripts of the bible. So there are two ways to translate what Jesus says:

“Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Thief goes straight to heaven)

or

“Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” (Thief goes to purgatory)

It’s also a fun way to teach kids the importance of the comma.

I lean towards the latter of course, since our Nicene and Apostle creeds state that Jesus does not go to Heaven until the Ascension.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I am just going to ask where I can find HARD evidence where it says in the bible or where Jesus says that we go to purgatory? One Jesus died on the cross her died for our sins, he said it is FINISHED! He said to the thief I will see you in paradise. He never once mentioned purgatory? Also where does it mention Mortal sin via Venial sin? All sin is the same? Yes it says there is a sin that leads to death but I take that to mean Blasphemy of the holy spirit e,g denying Christ. Just trying to understand these two things about the Catholic church which I really want to see evidence of in the bible that Jesus says it. Thanks

Why do you care what’s in the Bible? Its a collection of writings declared to be the canon of scripture by the Catholic Church. It was never selected as a catechism in and of itself containing all the teachings handed on by the apostles. It was never intended to be a depository of the entire faith. Hence, as someone earlier cited Paul wrote that we should adhere to what was passed on both orally and in writing.

If you don’t accept the authority of the Catholic Church-- why accept the Bible at all? If the Church has no authority, than there is no basis for accepting the collection of writings as scripture, nor any assurance that they accurately relate what Jesus said.

ETA: Prior to the declaration of the canon of scripture, the early Christians prayed for the dead, they even engraved those prayers in the catacombs. Why pray for the dead if the dead are either in heaven or hell? Doesn’t make sense if they are in paradise or in eternal damnation. But it does make sense if they are in purgatory.

 

[Steveabrous]

ETA: Prior to the declaration of the canon of scripture, the early Christians prayed for the dead, they even engraved those prayers in the catacombs. Why pray for the dead if the dead are either in heaven or hell? Doesn’t make sense if they are in paradise or in eternal damnation. But it does make sense if they are in purgatory.

This Fact is preserved for us in scripture as well. 1st corinthians 15:29

“Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?”

Here Paul is not condemning the practice. In fact he is affirming the practice to prove the resurrecton of the body.

Baptism is most certainly a prayer and forgives sins so a person can go to heaven. So Paul affirms a practice in the church were people pray for the dead so that they will get their sins forgiven and entire heaven. Sounds like and indulgence to me.