Evidence of a Vibrant Social Ministry Lacking

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AndyF

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Outside the Church’s commended protests and bulls of the issue of death sentences, stem cell, and abortion,etc why do we not see a more forceful ministry for the collective.

The scale of atrocities they commit has a body today is mind boggling, the treatment of their citizens in their justice system and the silence of the Church in this issue is evident to even the children of the so called more “advanced” societies. Could this well explain the partnering posture the Church has adopted we see today where it shares with society tutoring to the masses on moral issues? Has the Authority of the Word been downplayed for the sake of political correctness.?

Unless we soon portray a balance in the correction of the two prime entities of this world, the Church risks a self image of one sidedness and preference.

What are your thoughts?

Andy
 
AndyF said:
Outside the Church’s commended protests and bulls of the issue of death sentences, stem cell, and abortion,etc why do we not see a more forceful ministry for the collective.

The scale of atrocities they commit has a body today is mind boggling, the treatment of their citizens in their justice system and the silence of the Church in this issue is evident to even the children of the so called more “advanced” societies. Could this well explain the partnering posture the Church has adopted we see today where it shares with society tutoring to the masses on moral issues? Has the Authority of the Word been downplayed for the sake of political correctness.?

Unless we soon portray a balance in the correction of the two prime entities of this world, the Church risks a self image of one sidedness and preference.

What are your thoughts?

Andy
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I don’t think I’m getting what you’re saying. Which atrocities are you talking about (and who is committing them)? Which justice system are you speaking of?
 
“Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.”
Mother Teresa

“If you can’t feed a hundred people, then feed just one.”
Mother Teresa

“Let us touch the dying, the poor, the lonely and the unwanted
according to the graces we have received and let us not be ashamed
or slow to do the humble work.”
Mother Teresa
 
AndyF said:
Ou
What are your thoughts?

Andy
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my thoughts are we must be talking about 2 different Catholic churches. In most modern societies the Catholic Church is the only strong voice for the rights of children, the innocent and oppressed. If you think action needs to be taken in the time and place you find yourself, take it. “The Church” is composed of Christians each in their own realm and sphere of influence being Christ to those with whom they come in contact.
 
What ministries are you involved in and which ones are you feeling lacking or wishing that you could also be part of?

We need to be the change we want to see.

Peace
 
You must not be looking at the American Catholic Church – we are at the forefront of all social justice programs, from the Bishops’ strong statements to the hidden volunteers.

Please explain your position and provide examples – we don’t understand what you’re saying nor why you’re making this (incorrect) claim.
 
Ok, my thoughts.

I don’t know if it is only my own experience, but has I go from day to day taking every opportunity to evangelize, I find the base knowledge of God’s moral principles are lacking. More shocking, I find this is lacking in the Justice systems of our nations, which help provide security for Church social events.

For instance it is taught in the primary Catholic schools that pardoning must be unconditional. The Justice systems of most democratic countries insist the offender initiate a pardon process. Another is that it is taught in primary Catholic schools that victims are to state outright what it calls for to compensate for a wrong committed against him. The Justice system implements a perpetual sentencing process, and the offender discovers that the sentencing surpasses what was stated by the victim or his representative. Noble concepts,words and phrases that indicate a desire for true justice are fleeting and lack true substance, and are used for the purpose to convey a just self image in the global eye. When tested and asked at what point constitutes closure, or reconciliation no one knows.

Also we have the day to day events. They produce no initiative by the Church, no outcry of protest. It responds when asked to, and only reluctantly when it needs to deal with institutions. There is a lack of energy, and no “in your face” confidence backed by the Law, or evangelical zeal. Fr. Galilea noted similar attributes in his book Temptation & Discernment.

Canada’s recent retroactive legislation to remove old age pensions from those incarcerated or already tried is a real travesty. It is obvious this afterthought belongs in a specific place only in the judicial process, and that is at the offender’s sentencing. Those being additionally sentenced in this way have had their day in court and the nation already stated what is required to make amends. The act is legislative theft in the eyes of God. If this is deemed has just sentencing, implement it for new cases.

Whenever I have the opportunity to remind people of truths, I find that they are basic truths. One rarely cannot launch a discussion on a foundation of common understanding. For persons who are close to Church affiliations this is easier however.

Andy
 
What are you talking about? Don’t you see the numerous Catholic charities and other things such as Catholic hospitals and schools? The Catholic Church and Catholics themselves are far more active in social justice than any other religion.
 
Yes. I’m sorry but the Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. No organization gives more money, food, and support to the poor. Nobody provides more love for the most wretched, even the ones who most would rather exact revenge upon. No organization has more holy doctrine and saving truth. Even if the Church has her faulty members. Are we out there doing graffiti, making little pipe bombs, and trying to deface governments? Maybe not. But I don’t think that’s true justice anyways. Remember, we are not of this world.
 
awatkins69 said:
Yes. I’m sorry but the Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. No organization gives more money, food, and support to the poor. Nobody provides more love for the most wretched, even the ones who most would rather exact revenge upon. No organization has more holy doctrine and saving truth. Even if the Church has her faulty members. Are we out there doing graffiti, making little pipe bombs, and trying to deface governments? Maybe not. But I don’t think that’s true justice anyways. Remember, we are not of this world.
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Exactly! 👍

If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
(John 15:19 RSV)
 
the_phoenix said:
“Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.”
Mother Teresa

“If you can’t feed a hundred people, then feed just one.”
Mother Teresa

“Let us touch the dying, the poor, the lonely and the unwanted
according to the graces we have received and let us not be ashamed
or slow to do the humble work.”
Mother Teresa
Click to expand...
While “doing it” we can talk as well.
 
challam2010:

What advancements has it made to restore the rights of citizens to their previous state after offenders have paid their debt to society. That is, full constitutional rights without discrimination has instructed and in the spirit of 2 Cor 2,6. Please name some aggressive campaigns it has launched to achieve this.

When has the Church instructed the same entity that pardons are to be granted unconditionally.?

When has it instructed the same entity the immoral act of imposing pre-known and controllable post sentencing not stated at trial has instructed in the book of Mathew with regards to proper place and conditions for reconciliation .?

When, for the sake of those offenders who seek to understand the full process of their situation, has it requested ambiguous definitions be clarified, such has “paid his debt” to society, or “closure” or, “restorative” justice .?
 
puzzleannie:

It has done good works and I didn’t say it didn’t or doesn’t. I’m saying it lacks energy and seems to shun taking the initiative in certain contexts.

An unpopular and unpleasant ministry it must find, regardless, it’s track record in the monitoring of the proper handling of our imprisoned citizens and those who have been released, is dismal at least in Canada. I think Christ’s sermon in this regard is given low priority on it’s agenda. While the lay community does a good job in bringing comfort to prisoners, the Church shows reluctance to do so. Proof can be found in the prison ministry. My research has found no objection from ministers of the Church to the afterthought retroactive post sentencing procedure of removing old age pensions for prisoners. The proper place for sentencing is in the courts where the offender is stated what it calls for to make amends. Retroaction is a money grab, and only serves to injure the innocent relatives of the prisoner who are beneficiaries.

The irony is the nation recently apologized to the Japanese Canadians for it’s expropriation of their lands while they were in a concentration camp, and now learns nothing on the principle of limiting power against the helpless.

There is a practical reason for this proper administration and one place process as well. How are the citizens and the Church to obtain statistics to gauge what is cruel and unusual?

I watched for a reaction the moment legislation was announced, silence.

Andy
 
basenji:

Change what we can, and to the things we can’t seek those who can and request they do.
 
awatkins69:

“even the ones who most would rather exact revenge upon”

I beg to differ. I find a reluctance to involve itself in these matters. Could be we have differing experiences and exposures, I can’t say.
 
AndyF said:
…For instance it is taught in the primary Catholic schools that pardoning must be unconditional. The Justice systems of most democratic countries insist the offender initiate a pardon process.
Click to expand...
Where is it taught that pardoning, done by the state, must be unconditional? I have never seen this.

Now, when we pardon people, on a personal level, it must be unconditional in that we must forgive others as we wish to be forgiven by God, but that is a completely different matter, and does not preclude a change in the relationship.
Another is that it is taught in primary Catholic schools that victims are to state outright what it calls for to compensate for a wrong committed against him.
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Again, this is something I have never heard of. Please provide documentation for these Catholic teachings so that we can understand fully what you are talking about.
… Also we have the day to day events. They produce no initiative by the Church, no outcry of protest. It responds when asked to, and only reluctantly when it needs to deal with institutions. There is a lack of energy, and no “in your face” confidence backed by the Law, or evangelical zeal. Fr. Galilea noted similar attributes in his book Temptation & Discernment.
Click to expand...
I think that the Church councils a thoughtful response rather than an immdiate reaction. From our point of view, the process of thinking something through can take a long time, but that time is not long in the view of the Church.
Canada’s recent retroactive legislation to remove old age pensions from those incarcerated or already tried is a real travesty. It is obvious this afterthought belongs in a specific place only in the judicial process, and that is at the offender’s sentencing. Those being additionally sentenced in this way have had their day in court and the nation already stated what is required to make amends. The act is legislative theft in the eyes of God. If this is deemed has just sentencing, implement it for new cases.
Click to expand...
You probably have a point there, altho I can see why Canada would not want to pay benefits to those whom it is already supporting. Retroactive stuff like that is not allowed in the US.
Whenever I have the opportunity to remind people of truths, I find that they are basic truths. One rarely cannot launch a discussion on a foundation of common understanding. For persons who are close to Church affiliations this is easier however.

Andy
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It is unfortunate that so many have so little understanding even of logical thought, much less the rich moral thought of the Church.
 
St_Francis said:
Now, when we pardon people, on a personal level, it must be unconditional in that we must forgive others as we wish to be forgiven by God, but that is a completely different matter, and does not preclude a change in the relationship.
Click to expand...
How is it a different matter?

AndyF
 
AndyF said:
Ok, my thoughts.

I don’t know if it is only my own experience, but has I go from day to day taking every opportunity to evangelize, I find the base knowledge of God’s moral principles are lacking. More shocking, I find this is lacking in the Justice systems of our nations, which help provide security for Church social events.

For instance it is taught in the primary Catholic schools that pardoning must be unconditional. The Justice systems of most democratic countries insist the offender initiate a pardon process. Another is that it is taught in primary Catholic schools that victims are to state outright what it calls for to compensate for a wrong committed against him. The Justice system implements a perpetual sentencing process, and the offender discovers that the sentencing surpasses what was stated by the victim or his representative. .

Andy
Click to expand...
so your thesis is the Catholic Church is responsible for flaws in Canada’s justice system? I missed a huge chunk of your argument somewhere along the way
 
AndyF said:
How is it a different matter?

AndyF
Click to expand...
We pray that God forgives us our trespasses as we forgive others, so we must forgive others, which is not to say that we would re-hire an embezzler, but only that we would not try to get personal revenge against him by, say, going to his house and taking a bunch of his stuff.

However, the state or government is in a different position. The state has the *duty *to protect others, and the authority to do so. It is not a question of forgiveness but a question of what society will do as a whole.

So, take someone who does not pay his rent. The landlord cannot go into that person’s place and start throwing all the stuff out, but the state can, because the state has the authority.

The state is not in the business of forgiving but of regulating the common good: the state is concerned with justice, not with mercy. Individuals, however, need to show mercy and have no right to “inflict” justice; however, they do have the right to go to the state and ask for redress in a certain problem, while at the same time forgiving the person.
 
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