Evidence of God. What does it accomplish?

[JamesATyler]

Would evidence of God make a person turn away from their sins? Some may out of fear for their lives. They might be inclined to follow the letter of the law to avoid punishment. What does that gain God? Slaves? If the slaves were left alone and the threat of punishment were removed would they not return to their old ways?

God can provide evidence but he does not. Does not this mean that God gains some advantage by not providing it? What advantage does God gain by remaining hidden? What negative consequences would there be if God was no longer hidden?

 

[mgn2010]

When Jesus spoke that eye has not seen nor ear has not heard what awaits the faithful believer,doesn’t this imply that because of our fallen nature, we are not fully able to comprehend the majesty that awaits those who make it to heaven at this time? If God were to manifest Himself in that primordial way in which Adam and Eve knew Him, would we be any better in understanding His presence being that we would still be viewing Him from our fallen nature? What good would it do for Him to show His full glorified state to an unprepared creature? What happened when Jesus appeared dazzling white before, Peter, James and John, in His true glorified nature…I believe the Scriptures state…and Peter did not know what he was saying…when he invoked…let’s build three tents for Elijah, Moses and Jesus (correct persons?). Was not this the reason Jesus often spoke to the Apostles not to share what He was telling them? We are children sipping in milk and in due time (eternal rest from this earth) will come to know the full essence of who God is if in fact we are allowed to come into that state. As Jesus remarked, there is enough worry for the present day, do not worry about the future. It may go for the perennial quest as well to limit the attempt to try to understand Him while we are still here working out our own salvation! His glorified presence will be with us soon enough.

 

[minion]

Would evidence of God make a person turn away from their sins? Some may out of fear for their lives. They might be inclined to follow the letter of the law to avoid punishment. What does that gain God? Slaves? If the slaves were left alone and the threat of punishment were removed would they not return to their old ways?

God can provide evidence but he does not. Does not this mean that God gains some advantage by not providing it? What advantage does God gain by remaining hidden? What negative consequences would there be if God was no longer hidden?

I may be mistaken, but what occurred to me a few weeks ago is that, God cannot, by evidence, prove that He actually is God to an atheist or skeptic.

If God shows shows he can rearrange universes, maybe he’s just a very powerful being (like Q from Star Trek) masquerading as God.
If God shows He can read your mind, that might just mean the being you’re talking to is psychic.
If God predicts the future correctly, perhaps He’s just a time traveler or experiences reality in another way.

I can keep going all day, but the point is, it doesn’t matter how much power a being shows, the being cannot prove the being is God by observable evidence. God can’t prove Himself to an atheist.

I have a theory, and I don’t know if it’s theologically sound or anything, but I think part of why God “hides” Himself, is that, by “hiding” himself, God allows free will able to exist. Because, by revealing Himself, goodness is revealed to an individual, and when confronted with absolute truth, the person is forced to make a decision that will forever change the course of their life, and narrow the path - and their amount of freedom.

Perhaps by “hiding” Himself, God lets man able to freely seek Him if they really desire to find God and goodness. Perhaps if God keeps talking to fallen mankind over their shoulder admonishing them 24/7, it would only make mankind more rebellious to authority than they already are, feeling they have no freedom.

Satan rebelled, along with I think a third of the angels? God was not hidden from them, yet they stilled rebelled.

In the end, I feel the only thing that can convince a sincere doubter is an infusion of grace, backed by a honest pursuit of truth, faith and reason. It’s all in God’s hands.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Would evidence of God make a person turn away from their sins? Some may out of fear for their lives. They might be inclined to follow the letter of the law to avoid punishment. What does that gain God? Slaves? If the slaves were left alone and the threat of punishment were removed would they not return to their old ways?

God can provide evidence but he does not. Does not this mean that God gains some advantage by not providing it? What advantage does God gain by remaining hidden? What negative consequences would there be if God was no longer hidden?

Facts play a significant role in leading people to God. But facts alone are not enough. If they loathe what they perceive God to be enough, no matter how many facts you throw at them, they will reject the idea of God they think you have because they assume it to be something it probably is not.

They already have preconceived notions of what -not who, what - God is, which rarely look like the Catholic understanding of Our Father. They believe these notions (rightly) to be false. So if you try to prove “God”'s existence, they’re starting with what they learned God was in childhood, or what they’ve decided God is based on their own philosophy/theology, which, poor- or well-developed, is rarely Christian, even if they call themselves Christians.

Take the poll-takers’ understanding of God. Quite a few think of God as a vague, impersonal life force. They can accept that this thing called God exists, but if you tell them this “God” loves them, they scoff at the idea.

I have heard atheists claim God to just be a grouchy old man sitting on a cloud who shoots thunderbolts at people he doesn’t like. If you try to prove God to them, they’ll be repulsed by the thought since their idea of God is naturally repulsive.

Before we can prove God exists, we must define who God is so none of these preconceived notions fuddles the fact that God exists. And the best answers to this lie in Scripture and in philosophy.

The evidence for God is out there, lying in the open. Facts never bothered men much, though. They’re a good starting point, but I don’t think anyone would still be a sinner if facts were all he needed. He needs a change of his id, and of his emotions, not simply an intellectual conversion - though the intellect can be a toehold for such a conversion.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Would evidence of God make a person turn away from their sins? Some may out of fear for their lives. They might be inclined to follow the letter of the law to avoid punishment. What does that gain God? Slaves? If the slaves were left alone and the threat of punishment were removed would they not return to their old ways?

God can provide evidence but he does not. Does not this mean that God gains some advantage by not providing it? What advantage does God gain by remaining hidden? What negative consequences would there be if God was no longer hidden?

I agree, I believe that’s the very reason why God doesn’t show things like that because even seeing won’t change people. Look at the fallen angels right up there with God and still they rebelled. Look at the miracles Jesus did and still there were people in His own time who tried to disprove what He did. I think He does it for our own good because I think the consequences of seeing and still rejecting are much worse than if someone rejects Him with no proof. I think the unforgivable sin has something to do with seeing the hand of God and still rejecting Him like seeing what Moses saw with the Ten Commandments and still choosing to not follow God. Look at how those who still chose to sin when Moses was up there getting the Ten Commandments and the people were down there sinning and rejecting God after seeing God part the Red Sea so God made the ground open up and swallow them. Rejecting God after seeing something like that is worse than rejecting Him without seeing proof. So it’s for our own good. Rejecting Him after seeing proof seals a person’s eternity but with having no proof, there’s always hope that a person can change when mankind seeks out God.

 

[tonyrey]

Facts play a significant role in leading people to God. But facts alone are not enough. If they loathe what they perceive God to be enough, no matter how many facts you throw at them, they will reject the idea of God they think you have because they assume it to be something it probably is not.

They already have preconceived notions of what -not who, what - God is, which rarely look like the Catholic understanding of Our Father. They believe these notions (rightly) to be false. So if you try to prove “God”'s existence, they’re starting with what they learned God was in childhood, or what they’ve decided God is based on their own philosophy/theology, which, poor- or well-developed, is rarely Christian, even if they call themselves Christians.

Take the poll-takers’ understanding of God. Quite a few think of God as a vague, impersonal life force. They can accept that this thing called God exists, but if you tell them this “God” loves them, they scoff at the idea.

I have heard atheists claim God to just be a grouchy old man sitting on a cloud who shoots thunderbolts at people he doesn’t like. If you try to prove God to them, they’ll be repulsed by the thought since their idea of God is naturally repulsive.

Before we can prove God exists, we must define who God is so none of these preconceived notions fuddles the fact that God exists. And the best answers to this lie in Scripture and in philosophy.

The evidence for God is out there, lying in the open. Facts never bothered men much, though. They’re a good starting point, but I don’t think anyone would still be a sinner if facts were all he needed. He needs a change of his id, and of his emotions, not simply an intellectual conversion - though the intellect can be a toehold for such a conversion.

The allegation that believers in God are guilty of wishful thinking is a two-edged sword!

 

[tonyrey]

The main reason why people object to Big Brother watching us all the time is the loss of our privacy and independence. Coercive evidence of God would be in the same category…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

James

** What advantage does God gain by remaining hidden? What negative consequences would there be if God was no longer hidden? **

I think the process is really reversed. From the dawn of human history God has furnished abundant pointers to His existence. But we have chosen not to see them. It is we who are hiding from God, not God who is hiding from us.

 

[Ion]

I may be mistaken, but what occurred to me a few weeks ago is that, **God cannot **, by evidence, prove that He actually is God to an atheist or skeptic.

Never put God and can’t in the same sentence because is wrong even if the intention is good.
If God already said he is going to do something or how is he going to do it, it’s wrong to say he can’t do the otherwise…

 

[Skye_Ariel]

James

** What advantage does God gain by remaining hidden? What negative consequences would there be if God was no longer hidden? **

I think the process is really reversed. From the dawn of human history God has furnished abundant pointers to His existence. But we have chosen not to see them. It is we who are hiding from God, not God who is hiding from us.

I like that! The moment Adam sinned in the Garden remember how God asked him Adam where are you? Not because God couldn’t see him, but because Adam was trying to hide from God. Good point!