Evidence of Islam's claim that Jewish and Christian Scripture is deliberately corrupted?

[MartinJordan]

There are three distinct persons (Father: unique God, Son: a human and a prophet, Holy Spirit: an angel) so how could we reconcile each three persons to coalesce in one? If you say/assume something about three attributes/personalities of God so that could be understood by anyway. But these three persons(Father, Son and holy Spirit) have distinct real presence! God has one unconditional eternal essence but not three. Presence of Son and Holy Spirit could be through space and time which conflict with eternity.

Ah there you are.

Where is the corruption?

Can you state it clear according to Islam?

Where in Islam do they teach that three distinct persons is a corruption according to the Bible you read?

In Islam Mary is thought as God by Christians right? So Where in the Scripture that Mary is another person of God that Christians corrupted?

MJ

 

[hasantas]

Ah there you are.

Where is the corruption?

Can you state it clear according to Islam?

Where in Islam do they teach that three distinct persons is a corruption according to the Bible you read?

In Islam Mary is thought as God by Christians right? So Where in the Scripture that Mary is another person of God that Christians corrupted?

MJ

Where is in Bible three distinct divine persons? Faher is unique divine. So claiming
that Bible says God is three divine persons is corruption.

163-And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. Al-Baqarah(2)

There are many verses which declare very clearly that God is one but not three persons. Qur’an was revealed after Bible so if there had been three persons in God Qur’an(God) would confirm that. Does Qur’an do? Look:

171- O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. An-Nisa(4)

22- Do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity and [thereby] become censured and forsaken. Al-Isra(17)

Mary!

31- They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. At-Tawbah(9)

Qur’an also say that they have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah. What does that mean?

That means they(Christians and Jews) assume their scholars as divine as Allah who can change scripture or repeal a law of religion or establish a new one. Your scholars do that.

Qur’an do not say they are Gods but people regard them divine. And also Qur’an say they regard Mary divine. That do not means Mary is another God or part of deity.

116- And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

117- I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

118- If You should punish them – indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. Al-Maidah(5)

8- And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Luke(4)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John(14)

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Luke 18

…

 

[jimkhong]

Put simply, since the Koran is the literal word of Allah, anything that differs from it is a corruption.

Following this line of reasoning, the muslims have no need to ask why or how we corrupted the Bible. It is not the Koran verbatim, hence it must be a corruption.

So very true.

You can see from drac16’s response as a Muslim that the only evidence quoted is the Quran. Everything is benchmarked against the Quran and can only be authentic if consistent with the Quran. That is the only evidence required by an orthodox Muslim.

If the OP is looking for evidence the way Christians or Western academia understand it, then there is none. It is true because the Quran says so.

 

[jimkhong]

While on another forum, i was actually surprised to see something akin to this thread appear…but in its reverse format… I’m reproducing one of the arguments made against the Jewish Torah, not as an advocate for such a position, but rather to highlight the ideas running through the heads of those who believe this to be true.

Thanks TheAtheist for forwarding an excellent summary of the Muslim position.

Other than using the Quran as the benchmark (as mentioned in my previous post), the other factor driving Muslim thinking here is that they take great pride in the fact that they have preserved and they read the Quran in its original 7th century Arabic of the Qureshi dialect. (Quran is written by God’s hand himself and thus cannot be altered)

They take it that the Christian lack of care when copying our scriptures as leading to alterations of the text. The many variations of the same text is proof of the alterations. Many even take translations of the Bible as alterations. So, LXX and Vulgate are all intentional alterations to the original scripture (physically) given by God.

Christians understand the Bible as the written part of the tradition handed down by the Church. The Church comes first who then determined which written text is in accordance with the body of tradition she is entrusted to preserve & transmit. Muslims do not have such a concept of a magisterium. For them, there is only the Quran (don’t even bother to say written tradition as there is no other transmission) and scholars exist to understand it in its 7th century Arabic. Its the other way round for them.

So when you ask Muslims for evidence, please understand they have very different concept of evidence in this regard.

 

[MartinJordan]

Where is in Bible three distinct divine persons? Faher is unique divine. So claiming
that Bible says God is three divine persons is corruption.

163-And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. Al-Baqarah(2)

There are many verses which declare very clearly that God is one but not three persons. Qur’an was revealed after Bible so if there had been three persons in God Qur’an(God) would confirm that. Does Qur’an do? Look:

171- O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. An-Nisa(4)

22- Do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity and [thereby] become censured and forsaken. Al-Isra(17)

Mary!

31- They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. At-Tawbah(9)

Qur’an also say that they have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah. What does that mean?

That means they(Christians and Jews) assume their scholars as divine as Allah who can change scripture or repeal a law of religion or establish a new one. Your scholars do that.

Qur’an do not say they are Gods but people regard them divine. And also Qur’an say they regard Mary divine. That do not means Mary is another God or part of deity.

116- And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

117- I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

118- If You should punish them – indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. Al-Maidah(5)

8- And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Luke(4)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John(14)

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Luke 18

…

This all has been covered Hasantas before. What you are doing is selective reading.

All Catholic 2000 year claims do NOT only use the Bible as if it just existed in its own and every Doctrine is in it. We trace all The teachings from the Apostles from their words but the Bible is a guide put together by the Church to encourage that the Truth sets us Free.

So the claim that Scriptures are deliberately corrupted fails. We cannot even say God is Holy (which we do) if someone or a set of other Scripture from another Faith says such sad things against our Love of God. You really have to let go of selective reading.

Jesus loves you and He is Good. How can he not be?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

I continue:

Hasantas You picked Luke 18 Jesus has not finished talking to the rich man. Why are you doing this Hasantas? This is like mocking us.

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”

29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Thus if you follow Jesus you gain Eternal Life in Heaven He is God and Good.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

I continue:

Hasantas You picked Luke 18 Jesus has not finished talking to the rich man. Why are you doing this Hasantas? This is like mocking us.

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”

29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Thus if you follow Jesus you gain Eternal Life in Heaven He is God and Good.

Peace be with you.

MJ

You choosed Jesus and Jesus could be the way of salvation and gain eternal life in Heaven. Congratulation! There is one thing that Jesus was the way to God but not God Himself!

But I have another way which will take me(Inshaâllah) in Heaven!

Again you blame me for citing from Bible! There is no wrong with that to cite from Bible. I cannot quote all Bible in every case, sure? Why do you not understand? I recite just what is relevant to subject. Is that wrong? After verse 19 it is another subject any more. Rich man should spend for way of God.

 

[MartinJordan]

You choosed Jesus and Jesus could be the way of salvation and gain eternal life in Heaven. Congratulation! There is one thing that Jesus was the way to God but not God Himself!

But I have another way which will take me(Inshaâllah) in Heaven!

Again you blame me for citing from Bible! There is no wrong with that to cite from Bible. I cannot quote all Bible in every case, sure? Why do you not understand? I recite just what is relevant to subject. Is that wrong? After verse 19 it is another subject any more. Rich man should spend for way of God.

Still the mocking. You continue to reject Jesus when he is still talking. This is disordered. I didn’t tell you to read pages and pages. Just let Lord speak If your respect what chose from our Bible.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Again you blame me for citing from Bible! There is no wrong with that to cite from Bible. I cannot quote all Bible in every case, sure? Why do you not understand? I recite just what is relevant to subject. Is that wrong? After verse 19 it is another subject any more. Rich man should spend for way of God.

Yes wrong. Verse 20 Jesus is still continuing his teaching to the man. Where are you learning reading comprehension? Verse 21 the same man says he follows those commandments. Then Jesus says there is one more thing lacking Read please.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[CandleFlame]

There are three distinct persons (Father: unique God, Son: a human and a prophet, Holy Spirit: an angel) so how could we reconcile each three persons to coalesce in one? If you say/assume something about three attributes/personalities of God so that could be understood by anyway. But these three persons(Father, Son and holy Spirit) have distinct real presence! God has one unconditional eternal essence but not three. Presence of Son and Holy Spirit could be through space and time which conflict with eternity.

Please forgive my lateness in the discussion. I just joined the forum as a poster, though I have been reading quite a bit. If this warrants a new thread, please advise.
I am drawn to the interpretation of the Holy Spirit. In this quote, it seems that here hasantas is equating Holy Spirit to an angel. I am curious if this is a general Muslim understanding of Holy Spirit.

 

[JimmyDFG]

There are three distinct persons (Father: unique God, Son: a human and a prophet, Holy Spirit: an angel)

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

The angel here is Gabriel. Gabriel mentions the Holy Spirit, not himself as being the Holy Spirit

 

[MartinJordan]

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

The angel here is Gabriel. Gabriel mentions the Holy Spirit, not himself as being the Holy Spirit

Yes. Clearly stated.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

Yes. Clearly stated.

MJ

 

[TheAtheist]

So when you ask Muslims for evidence, please understand they have very different concept of evidence in this regard.

Oh that was kind of the point i was highlighting with other members of your faith on this forum and also with the Muslims i interacted with on their own.

Inter-religious discussion as a point to expose differences makes sense to me.

Inter-religious debate to “one-up” the person of another faith or viewpoint seems absolutely ludicrous precisely because none of you actually share a common set of rules of what constitutes evidence.

The analogy that pops to mind is essentially two groups of people attempting to play a sport, say Basketball, but both teams are using different sets of rules.

So what gets taken as a minor issue by one group gets blown up to being a “deal-breaker” if you will for the other side.

It makes the exercise in “debating” to be rather pointless.

But i guess that evaluation only stands if your goal is problem-solving. I’m not a behavioral scientist, but if I had to take a stab at it - i’m guessing most people want to debate for whatever particular psychological reason that motivates them.

Maybe they feel they are somehow defending their faith (although how an argument on an internet forum has any effect in the real world… )… or maybe they just had a bad day and feel the need to vent.

And who am I stand in the way of about 200,000+ years worth of evolutionary drives that promote tribalistic thinking? That would be the bigger fools errand really.

But i take solace in people like you jim - because a scholarly mindset at the very least clarifies ideas - and in that respect we may all learn something.

 

[MartinJordan]

So when you ask Muslims for evidence, please understand they have very different concept of evidence in this regard.

Better then for them to spend time in prayer than accusation of corruption.

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

Here’s a better question to ask:

Let’s just assume that the Bible is in fact corrupted, however, that would create another problem for the Muslims.

Muslims believe in the finality of prophethood, it is essential in their faith to believe that Muhammad was the last of the prophets. Who were the previous prophets? Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. How are people supposed to recognise that Muhammad was the last of those prophets? By whether the teachings of Muhammad are identical to their beliefs.

Now this is where the problem occurs. How is someone supposed to recognise whether the beliefs of the previous prophets were identical to the teachings of Muhammad who supposedly succeeded them, if all the evidence is supposedly corrupted?

Of course, for Muslims, what the Quran says is sufficient. But how are non Muslims supposed to recognise this? You cannot use the Quran alone as evidence for what Jesus (600 years prior to the Quran), Moses (1500 years prior to the Quran), and Abraham (1800 years prior to the Quran) all believed. If the Bible being corrupted is a fact, then perhaps even the monotheism in the Bible could be a corrupted concept; how do we know Muhammad didn’t teach corruptions that existed in the Bible?

 

[hasantas]

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

The angel here is Gabriel. Gabriel mentions the Holy Spirit, not himself as being the Holy Spirit

Holy Spirit is not the unique angel. There are countless angels. And also angels can get very different forms.

 

[MartinJordan]

Holy Spirit is not the unique angel. There are countless angels. And also angels can get very different forms.

Even you used Luke to speak on the Holy Spirit. Which Muslim Imam actually does this?

MJ

 

[hasantas]

Even you used Luke to speak on the Holy Spirit. Which Muslim Imam actually does this?

MJ

I am not a Imam. Qur’an is enough to preach. I discuss with Christians and it is very usual to use Bible. In Islam creed Bible and Torah are holy though believers of them had made wrong interpretations.

 

[MartinJordan]

I am not a Imam. Qur’an is enough to preach. I discuss with Christians and it is very usual to use Bible. In Islam creed Bible and Torah are holy though believers of them had made wrong interpretations.

So you are not an Imam but a lone wolf then? Unable to provide a simple name of a respected and trusted Imam approved by Mufti that clarifies the false interpretation about the Holy Spirit mentioned by Luke.

Peace be with you.

MJ