Evidence of Jesus

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Dr. Bart Ehrman of the University of N. Carolina is quoted as saying there is no nGreek or Roman historian that ever mentions Jesus in the first century of the AD era.

Is this true? If not, what is there? If so, what is the answer?
 
It is true.

Why would we expect a Greek or Roman historian to mention Jesus at all (a man who was a condemned criminal and executed by the Roman state?)

There were LOTS of people who were similarly executed. Do any Greek or Roman historians record the details of their deaths? Can you (or Dr. Bart Ehrman) give me a name or two? (You could probably give me one name - Spartacus - but can you give me another? The slave rebellion led by Spartacus led to so many thousands of crucifictions that construction projects in Rome were delayed because of lack of lumber. Can anyone name another participant (out of thousands who were executed) of this rebellion?)

It is even more interesting that no contemporary Greek or Roman historian recorded anything at all about the Emperor Nero. Have you heard of him? You probably have. He was the flippin’ Emperor of the entire Roman Empire - the most powerful man on earth (by far) - a position he held for nearly fourteen years.

How many contemporary historical accounts have survived that even mention the Roman Emperor Nero? Answer: None. Nada. Zip.

The bulk of what we know about Nero comes from three historians - two of whom wrote 50 years after his death, and one wrote 150 years after.

Furthermore, all three of these historians were of the Roman senatorial class. People come here and ask for non-Christian documents about Jesus (as if the writings of Christians are somehow historically dubious), yet they seem content to accept Roman accounts concerning Roman Emperors, and they appear to be completely ignorant of the double standard they impose.

A quick scan of Jurgens’ index (in the Faith of the Early Fathers) shows roughly 36 documents about Jesus written on or before 183 AD (if we accept that Jesus died at age 33, this is 150 years after his death) - and this does not include any of the 29 books of the New Testament. Combined, we have about 60 documents about Jesus written within 150 years of his death (all written by Christians), compared to three documents about Nero (all written by Romans).

Jesus was a condemned criminal who was not even a citizen of the Empire he inhabited, and he was executed (as a slave) by the Roman State. Jesus was one of thousands to suffer this fate (and, on that particular day, he shared his fate with two other condemned criminals, who were also not described by any Greek or Roman historians). Jesus was not executed in Rome, but in a remote desert province. His trial and execution took less than a day - the people who tried and executed him were home in time for supper. It was business as usual in the Roman Empire.

Nero was the Emperor of that Empire for fourteen years.

Why do you suppose we have some twenty times more contemporary or early historical documentation about Jesus than we have about Nero? Especially when you consider that ALL early Christian writings could lead to the DEATH of the author? Compared to Jesus, the existence of the Roman Emperor Nero is about as credible as that of the tooth fairy. But does anyone seriously think that there was no such Roman Emperor, simply because there is absolutely no surviving contemporary historical documentation, and all later documentation was written by Romans, with no fear of persecution?
 
^^^good stuff, Mr. Filmer.

…and just to add a small consideration–the term ‘historian’ as used in antiquity had a vastly different meaning than what it means today. Historians in antiquity wrote of Emporors, significant leaders, wars, and the like–not so much for the purpose of memorializing (as we consider modern historians)–but for ‘mythologizing’ if you will. Discerning significance and inspiration (and negative lessons) for future generations.

Jesus wasn’t written about contemporaneously, because his significance did not appear manifest. He was a poor jew; just some folk hero, to the ‘real world’. It wasn’t until several decades after his death, Resurrection, and ascension, that it even dawned upon his closest followers, to document his life. He had spread His message my mouth, and by deed, and insturcted His Apostles to do the same.

…they figured to write things down ex post facto, after the utility/necessity of such became apparent–as time elapsed, and greater discrepancies in this one’s memory or account began to conflict with that one’s…

You may also credit their Jewish heritage for this–as the tie in to OT accounts became more apparent with the passage of time–that is, as they realized that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of all the prophesies—they also realized that as such, written accounts of such would be in order (of course, this is reverse engineering, and perhaps speculation–but the point stands, as to why His life was not documented contemporaneuosly).

The bottom line however, is that ‘the proof is in the pudding’. Even if His life was not documented contemporaneously–the evidence is manifest, in the ‘fruits’ of His life–His legacy, his followers, their followers, the undeniable spread of Christianity, the persecution, the martyrdom of His disciples, the split within Judaism, etc.–begging the more telling rhetorical question–

If there was no Jesus…why then, all the fuss???
 
Bart Ehrman is one of a number of people involved in what is called “The Quest for the Historical Jesus.” Generally speaking, such people consider many aspects of the NT description of Jesus as being embellishments (in other words, they see a difference between the so-called “Jesus of History” and the “Jesus of Faith”). What hinders their study is the lack of surviving 1st Century documentation of Israel and the Jewish people & culture, causing proponents of the Quest for the Historical Jesus to engage in a notable degree of speculation. As a result, there is a wide amount of disagreement among them as to exactly who the “Jesus of History” was. Some say a cynical sage, some say a prophet, some say a myth, etc. I can’t remember off the top of my head what conclusions Erhman specifically makes, but my point is to keep in mind that he and the other proponents of the Quest for the Historical Jesus are basically presenting a lot of subjective opinions drawn from very few actual facts.
 
Well, wouldn’t you consider the most likely people to speak about a Jewish itinerant preacher who had no political power whatsoever to be, not Roman historians (who were invariably interested in the elites of Roman society), but Jewish ones? And hey, guess what, there is one that speaks about Jesus: Josephus.
 
Well, wouldn’t you consider the most likely people to speak about a Jewish itinerant preacher who had no political power whatsoever to be, not Roman historians (who were invariably interested in the elites of Roman society), but Jewish ones? And hey, guess what, there is one that speaks about Jesus: Josephus.
He just wrote what I was about to write :). The Jewish historian Josephus mentions Jesus and St. Peter’s confrontation with Simon the Magician. You gotta remember Jesus was only a simple carpenter from a tiny little area that the Roman Empire could care less. The only means of communication those days were oral tradition and the odds of the Romans hearing about Jesus at the concurrent time were close to 0. It is very important to place yourself in the full context of those days when you approach that issue and not look at it with 21st century mind.
 
***Bart Ehrman is one of a number of people involved in what is called “The Quest for the Historical Jesus.” ***Generally speaking, such people consider many aspects of the NT description of Jesus as being embellishments (in other words, they see a difference between the so-called “Jesus of History” and the “Jesus of Faith”). What hinders their study is the lack of surviving 1st Century documentation of Israel and the Jewish people & culture, causing proponents of the Quest for the Historical Jesus to engage in a notable degree of speculation. As a result, there is a wide amount of disagreement among them as to exactly who the “Jesus of History” was. Some say a cynical sage, some say a prophet, some say a myth, etc. I can’t remember off the top of my head what conclusions Erhman specifically makes, but my point is to keep in mind that he and the other proponents of the Quest for the Historical Jesus are basically presenting a lot of subjective opinions drawn from very few actual facts.
Bingo!

I didn’t really want to go there, but since you tripped the issue…here is a nice little book on the topic:

The Real Jesus : The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels, by Timothy Luke Johnson.

Amazon review excerpts:
Finally, a passionately argued but fair response to the Jesus Seminar (The Five Gospels, LJ 2/15/94) from an established scholar. Johnson has a double purpose: to provide an outspoken but courteous critique of the output of this small minority of mostly second-line scholars and to address the confusion in the church over the relationship between history and faith. These scholars are joined by a large number of amateurs using the same clearly defective methodology to bypass the scholarly process for a highly effective public relations “culture war” in the news media and publishing industry. They commonly claim to have previously unknown or suppressed data, usually a nonliteral or symbolic interpretation of the Gospels to produce “history” and promote provocative conclusions that would force radical reinterpretation or rejection of traditional Christianity. This book should be in any religious collection to help provide balance to the current historical Jesus literature. It could well be supplemented by The Jesus Quest (InterVarsity, 1995), an excellent survey of the full range of “historical Jesus” literature. Highly recommended. Eugene O. Bowser, Univ. of Northern Colorado, Greeley
Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Timothy Luke Johnson does an absolutely marvelous job of analyzing how and where things went wrong in NT studies. Had he just set out to criticize the Jesus Seminar (an easy undertaking–the vast majority of important NT scholars on both the left and right of the theological spectrum look askance at their efforts), it would have been an entertaining exercise in debunking. But what I didn’t expect was a balanced and incisive analysis of where things went wrong in Biblical scholarship.
I do recommend this book as an important corrective to the misguided and rather silly efforts of Robert Funk and his cohorts, but even more I recommend it as an analysis of where things went wrong and as a guide to how we might get ourselves back on track. After having plowed through tedious and uninsightful works by Funk, Crossan, and Pagels in recent months, I found this book to be a complete breath of fresh air.
amazon.com/Real-Jesus-Misguided-Historical-Traditional/dp/0060641665#_

In one part, he laid out a nice little analogy of how these guys seek to form a picture from existing jigsaw puzzle pieces according to how they want the final puzzle to appear–by cutting the pieces to fit their vision (agenda)–while ommitting the most telling piece of the puzzle (i.e.–the Acts of the Apostles). IMO, he (Johnson) lays these neo-schollies pretty low, for the embarrasing work they try to pass of as ‘scholarship’.

…just in case anyone is interested…
 
Great post and information. Liking it for future reference.👍
 
He just wrote what I was about to write :). The Jewish historian Josephus mentions Jesus and St. Peter’s confrontation with Simon the Magician. You gotta remember Jesus was only a simple carpenter from a tiny little area that the Roman Empire could care less. The only means of communication those days were oral tradition and the odds of the Romans hearing about Jesus at the concurrent time were close to 0. It is very important to place yourself in the full context of those days when you approach that issue and not look at it with 21st century mind.
Good point, Mary. Josephus does mention Simon Magus, but I don’t think he mentions St Peter’s confrontation with him.
 
Bingo!

I didn’t really want to go there, but since you tripped the issue…here is a nice little book on the topic:

The Real Jesus : The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels, by Timothy Luke Johnson…
Thanks for the information, Goya. I hadn’t heard of this book before and am looking into it.
 
Bart Ehrman is one of a number of people involved in what is called “The Quest for the Historical Jesus.” Generally speaking, such people consider many aspects of the NT description of Jesus as being embellishments (in other words, they see a difference between the so-called “Jesus of History” and the “Jesus of Faith”). What hinders their study is the lack of surviving 1st Century documentation of Israel and the Jewish people & culture, causing proponents of the Quest for the Historical Jesus to engage in a notable degree of speculation…
As Gordon Fee, an Evangelical NT scholar noted about Ehrman and like scholars, they “…turn possibility into probability and probability into certainty where other equally viable reasons for [textual] corruption exist”. (via Strobel, Lee, The Case for the Real Jesus, 2007

Its nothing new that many secular NT scholars follow a “sola scriptura” of interpreting the NT apart from the Early Church Fathers (with an occasional exception of “cherry picked” quotes) or other contextual documents–they are following the example of Protestant theologians who had to avoid such sources because such context shows the early Church was CATHOLIC in belief and practice.
 
The problem with Bart Ehrman is that he is good at his expertise (textual criticism) but mediocre at best in everything else (general historigraphy, exegesis, etc…)

To be fair, Ehrman is smart and his work is OK at a scholarly level. Most of his ‘opponents’ hold him with some regard, they do not say ‘he’s just a crackpot’.
He is also quite a nice speaker, very passionate.

The PROBLEM is that especially in his non-scholarly publications (ie his books) he grinds a huge axe and even lacks honesty here and there. Sometimes (like in ‘Forged’ he also makes some bad exegetical work).

So ‘common people’ who read Ehrman’s work often have a severly warped view… also Ehrman seems to tell or imply things in his pop-books that he often denies in debates with other scholars (since they would otherwise bust him).

Look up the Daniel B. Wallace vs. Bart Ehrman “dialogue” (it was a friendly debate) on youtube or www.ehrmanproject.com. It’s a nice debate and both show repsect ofr each other and sometimes make ironic comments about each other. It’s also quite instructive.

PS: Ehrman is agnostic but DOES believe that Jesus existed, taught and had disciples. His main ‘claim’ is that the New Testament is unreliable and the ‘original text’ completely lost (not that today we have only fiction, but that there is a lot of ‘pollution’).

Ehrman actually wrote a book about the existence of Jesus (angering atheist fuindamentalists like Richard Carrier who support the Christ Myth Theory… which NO scholar believe btw).
no nGreek or Roman historian that ever mentions Jesus
Tacitus and Josephus mention him.
Josephus account is a bit polluted (i.e. some additions) but no doubt that he wrote about Jesus.

Also: the Jews mention Jesus in the talmuld. They do recognize that he was a real persion and was “hanged” (not in the sense ‘hanged by the neck’ as we mean today) referring to his death on the cross.
They of course picture him as evil and an enemy of God and state that his disciples ‘healed people in his name’. The condemn Jesus to hell as well

Now although this does not prove Christianity true, it does prove that Jesus was a real person and had quite an impact in 1st Century Palestine. So it immediatelyu proves people like Richard Carrier or Earl Doherty (who claim Jesus did not exist) wrong.

Also we know Celsus (Origen quotes him e rebuking his arguments) a Pagan mentioned him (although we only have Origen’s quotations not Celus actual work) stated that Jesus was “born out a Roman soldier called Panthera”… this is though to be a distorsion of the Talmuld where Jesus is indeed called ‘Ben Pandera/Pantera’’ (son of Pandera/Pantera) where Pandera appears to be like a ‘average foreigner’,. a Roman maybe, i.e. claiming that Miriam (also referred as Stada in the Talmuld, which might come freom the word for unfaithful) was unfaithful to her husband and had a kid with some lover.

They say other horrible stuff about Jesus, obviously, since they are detractors, yet from all the bad stuff, it comes quite clearly out that the ‘Talmuld Jesus’ is a response to the ‘Gospel Jesus’ a for of anti-Christian apologestics

See:** Peter Schäfer - Jesus in the Talmuld**

Now, if Jesus was not real, I doubt the Jews would have gone in so much detail to make him such an horrible person… it would have been easier just to say to other Jews: look Jesus is like Horus, he does not exist he’s some pagan god or prophet made up by those pagan ‘christians’.

Evidently Jesus (and disciples) had quite an impact on the 1st century Jews… this does NOT mean the Romans would have cared a bit.

The talmuld also shows the tension between Jews and Christians in the early days of Christianity, Obviously the Jews would not be so negative otherwise.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying the Jews are bad or making accusations. Of course Christian writers wrote sometimes horrible things about the Jews as well and it is only normal and human to ‘say horrible things’ about your opponent.

This happened with ‘Vlad Dracul’ ( “Dracula”) as well… although in Romania he’s a folks hero aginst Turk invasion, most sources (that show him as a horrible person indeed) come from German writers who had an axe to grind against Walachia and Vlad Dracul. Not saying Vlad was a saint, but he was no satan worshipper either as some sources accuse him.
 
The problem with Bart Ehrman is that he is good at his expertise (textual criticism) but mediocre at best in everything else (general historigraphy, exegesis, etc…)

To be fair, Ehrman is smart and his work is OK at a scholarly level. Most of his ‘opponents’ hold him with some regard, they do not say ‘he’s just a crackpot’.
He is also quite a nice speaker, very passionate.

The PROBLEM is that especially in his non-scholarly publications (ie his books) he grinds a huge axe and even lacks honesty here and there. Sometimes (like in ‘Forged’ he also makes some bad exegetical work).

So ‘common people’ who read Ehrman’s work often have a severly warped view… also Ehrman seems to tell or imply things in his pop-books that he often denies in debates with other scholars (since they would otherwise bust him).

Look up the Daniel B. Wallace vs. Bart Ehrman “dialogue” (it was a friendly debate) on youtube or www.ehrmanproject.com. It’s a nice debate and both show repsect ofr each other and sometimes make ironic comments about each other. It’s also quite instructive.

PS: Ehrman is agnostic but DOES believe that Jesus existed, taught and had disciples. His main ‘claim’ is that the New Testament is unreliable and the ‘original text’ completely lost (not that today we have only fiction, but that there is a lot of ‘pollution’).

Ehrman actually wrote a book about the existence of Jesus (angering atheist fuindamentalists like Richard Carrier who support the Christ Myth Theory… which NO scholar believe btw).

Tacitus and Josephus mention him.
Josephus account is a bit polluted (i.e. some additions) but no doubt that he wrote about Jesus.

Also: the Jews mention Jesus in the talmuld. They do recognize that he was a real persion and was “hanged” (not in the sense ‘hanged by the neck’ as we mean today) referring to his death on the cross.
They of course picture him as evil and an enemy of God and state that his disciples ‘healed people in his name’. The condemn Jesus to hell as well

Now although this does not prove Christianity true, it does prove that Jesus was a real person and had quite an impact in 1st Century Palestine. So it immediatelyu proves people like Richard Carrier or Earl Doherty (who claim Jesus did not exist) wrong.

Also we know Celsus (Origen quotes him e rebuking his arguments) a Pagan mentioned him (although we only have Origen’s quotations not Celus actual work) stated that Jesus was “born out a Roman soldier called Panthera”… this is though to be a distorsion of the Talmuld where Jesus is indeed called ‘Ben Pandera/Pantera’’ (son of Pandera/Pantera) where Pandera appears to be like a ‘average foreigner’,. a Roman maybe, i.e. claiming that Miriam (also referred as Stada in the Talmuld, which might come freom the word for unfaithful) was unfaithful to her husband and had a kid with some lover.

They say other horrible stuff about Jesus, obviously, since they are detractors, yet from all the bad stuff, it comes quite clearly out that the ‘Talmuld Jesus’ is a response to the ‘Gospel Jesus’ a for of anti-Christian apologestics

See:** Peter Schäfer - Jesus in the Talmuld**

Now, if Jesus was not real, I doubt the Jews would have gone in so much detail to make him such an horrible person… it would have been easier just to say to other Jews: look Jesus is like Horus, he does not exist he’s some pagan god or prophet made up by those pagan ‘christians’.

Evidently Jesus (and disciples) had quite an impact on the 1st century Jews… this does NOT mean the Romans would have cared a bit.

The talmuld also shows the tension between Jews and Christians in the early days of Christianity, Obviously the Jews would not be so negative otherwise.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying the Jews are bad or making accusations. Of course Christian writers wrote sometimes horrible things about the Jews as well and it is only normal and human to ‘say horrible things’ about your opponent.

This happened with ‘Vlad Dracul’ ( “Dracula”) as well… although in Romania he’s a folks hero aginst Turk invasion, most sources (that show him as a horrible person indeed) come from German writers who had an axe to grind against Walachia and Vlad Dracul. Not saying Vlad was a saint, but he was no satan worshipper either as some sources accuse him.
Nice, Ismael.
 
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