Evil and God

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ClemtheCatholic

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If I remember correctly, both Saint Thomas Aquinas and the CCC state that God only permits any evil that a greater good might come from it. Could somebody please explain if this is 100% correct or otherwise…! 👍 I’m eager to know this and then, depending on the answers, I shall take the question to a new level. 🙂

God Bless and Thanks!!
ClemtheCatholic
 
"God in His almighty providence can bring good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by His creatures. ‘It was not you,’ said Joseph to his brothers, ‘who sent me here, but God. . . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive’ (Gen. 50:20). From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of men - God brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption."
(CCC 312)

Isn’t this the ultimate slap in the face for satan? I mean, think about it. Satan devises the most horrific act by brutally humiliating, torturing and then murdering our savior on the cross and from that act of brutality, God brings about the greatest good possible that could come… the salvation of human kind.

It really shows the sheer futility of sin in all of our lives. What’s the point in defying God’s will? Those who martyred Catholics out of a desire to weaken the Catholic Church surely weren’t expecting the mass conversions to the faith that martyrdom ultimately brings about. Sin is completely pointless, even satan knows that it’s pointless, it’s just that he is so blinded by pride that he doesn’t care and does it anyways.
 
Hello again Clem. To answer your question IF IT IS STATED IN THE CATECHISM THEN YES IT IS 100 PERCENT TRUE.
 
From the Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum, On The Publication Of The Catechism Of The Catholic Church, Prepared Following The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council.
Signed by John Paul, Bishop, Servant Of The Servants Of God, For Everlasting Memory, On 11 October 1992

Emphasis mine:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, …
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This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine…
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That’s good enough for me.
 
There is nothing erroneous in the Catechism. Yes it is 100 percent true. It contains all the dogmas of the Church, everything a faithful Catholic must believe. The website of the USCCB has an excellent section about the Catechism-sorry I don’t know how to post a link.
 
I’ve always regarded the CCC as without error… but looking back I think I maybe didn’t do such a good job of phrasing my initial post!
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
If I remember correctly, both Saint Thomas Aquinas and the CCC state that God only permits any evil that a greater good might come from it. Could somebody please explain if this is 100% correct or otherwise…! 👍 I’m eager to know this and then, depending on the answers, I shall take the question to a new level. 🙂

God Bless and Thanks!!
ClemtheCatholic
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Jimmy Akin is starting a series on " Why does evil exist ? " The first installment was very interesting. This should keep things going for awhile. One point he raises but does not draw out the full implications on is this : Yes, God could stop evil or prevent it. I would say he does not for at least three reasons amongst others.

First if He were to prevent all evils, we wouldn’t learn anything, we would just keep on sinning. As you know, all evil is the result of the personal sins of us all !! And not just those of any number of maniacs we could name.

Secondly, wouldn’t the world become a very weird place if God was " flying around " putting out all the fires. Actually, it would all be just too rediculous.

Thirdly, evils sometimes are His chosen method of punishing the evil dooers. I’m sure you can all think of a few examples.
ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/why-does-god-allow-sin-and-suffering/ 👍
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
If I remember correctly, both Saint Thomas Aquinas and the CCC state that God only permits any evil that a greater good might come from it. Could somebody please explain if this is 100% correct or otherwise…! 👍 I’m eager to know this and then, depending on the answers, I shall take the question to a new level. 🙂

God Bless and Thanks!!
ClemtheCatholic
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Though I have very high regard for Aquinas, he is mistaken when he says that God only permits evil.

The Bible is filled with examples which flat out contradict this assertion. God does not merely permit evil, He causes it.
For instance, consider the sublimest example in human history: the crucifixion of Jesus.
The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was “Him, being delivered by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God.” (Acts 2:23).
Granted, “both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together” (4:28) “against the Lord, and against his Christ” (v. 26). Nevertheless, all that happened to Jesus was “to do whatsoever [God’s] hand and [his] will determined before to be done” (v. 28).
Moreover, when Pilate sought to emphasize to Jesus his authority to determine Jesus’ life or death, Jesus retorted, “Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above (i.e., from God)” (John 19:10, 11).
God was in absolute control of both the minutest details and the outcome of the cross event, and that by meticulously controlling every human decision along the way. Regarding Jesus, “It was the will of the LORD to crush him, he has put him to grief.” (Isaiah 53:10)
 
cap76 said:
Though I have very high regard for Aquinas, he is mistaken when he says that God only permits evil.

The Bible is filled with examples which flat out contradict this assertion. God does not merely permit evil, He causes it.
For instance, consider the sublimest example in human history: the crucifixion of Jesus.
The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was “Him, being delivered by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God.” (Acts 2:23).
Granted, “both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together” (4:28) “against the Lord, and against his Christ” (v. 26). Nevertheless, all that happened to Jesus was “to do whatsoever [God’s] hand and [his] will determined before to be done” (v. 28).
Moreover, when Pilate sought to emphasize to Jesus his authority to determine Jesus’ life or death, Jesus retorted, “Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above (i.e., from God)” (John 19:10, 11).
God was in absolute control of both the minutest details and the outcome of the cross event, and that by meticulously controlling every human decision along the way. Regarding Jesus, “It was the will of the LORD to crush him, he has put him to grief.” (Isaiah 53:10)
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While it is clear that God (and therefore Jesus) knew before hand that his incarnation would eventually lead to his sacrifice, I don’t think I buy the “micromanagement” model you’re portraying. Rather, when you consider who Jesus was and the power he possessed, it was a foregone conclusion that the Jewish power structure was not going to accept his teaching and was not going to idly stand by and allow him to undermine their authority (and he was doing so in a very overt manner). So, yes, in a way it was predetermined. But Pilate, Judas, James, Peter and all the rest had choices to make and they made them. The story ended with a cross on Golgatha. Had Jesus been killed some other way in some other place, a few years earlier or later, the story is the same, is it not?

God does not “do” evil. God does not permit evil in heaven. As J. Akin asserts, I believe God allows evil so that we can decide, err, learn and grow. Wisdom doesn’t come from perfect execution. It comes for learning from our mistakes and the mistakes of others and growing in grace and love to accept the right path.

All just my opinion, of course.
 
VirtusTransitus said:
All just my opinion, of course.
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Of course. However, I wasn’t giving my opinion. I was quoting from the early churches interpretation of what happened to Jesus according to their own words in Acts 2 and 4. Then I quoted from Isaiah’s understanding of the matter in chapter 53.
 
cap76 said:
Though I have very high regard for Aquinas, he is mistaken when he says that God only permits evil.

The Bible is filled with examples which flat out contradict this assertion. God does not merely permit evil, He causes it.
For instance, consider the sublimest example in human history: the crucifixion of Jesus.
The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was “Him, being delivered by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God.” (Acts 2:23).
Granted, “both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together” (4:28) “against the Lord, and against his Christ” (v. 26). Nevertheless, all that happened to Jesus was “to do whatsoever [God’s] hand and [his] will determined before to be done” (v. 28).
Moreover, when Pilate sought to emphasize to Jesus his authority to determine Jesus’ life or death, Jesus retorted, “Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above (i.e., from God)” (John 19:10, 11).
God was in absolute control of both the minutest details and the outcome of the cross event, and that by meticulously controlling every human decision along the way. Regarding Jesus, “It was the will of the LORD to crush him, he has put him to grief.” (Isaiah 53:10)
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Christ’s Passion and Death was the greatest act of Divine charity and love in the history of mankind. The above scriptural quotes properly understood in full context is proof of this. God willed to save mankind from sin and subsequently death (the wages of sin is death) and only a perfect spotless sacrifice would be sufficient to satisfy God’s justice. Since human beings are never without the stain of sin (with the exception of the Blessed Mother who was conceived and preserved without sin) only a Divine victim could accomplish this - the Only Begotten Son of God, both fully man and fully God. The writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers and other scripture corroborates this. Jesus merited our salvation. We are justified through Christ, though it should be noted that we Catholics understand the doctrine of “justification” quite differently than Protestants.

Regarding the OP’s question, we have to remember that God gave us a free will, so it is up to us to use it properly and cooperate with God in order to do good. We sinners are responsible for the evil in the world, though God even uses the bad to bring about good. All things are possible for God.
 
SperainDeo7 said:
Regarding the OP’s question, we have to remember that God gave us a free will, so it is up to us to use it properly and cooperate with God in order to do good. We sinners are responsible for the evil in the world, though God even uses the bad to bring about good. All things are possible for God.
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Almost there.

We are free moral agents. But only as free to live as our nature, personality, opportunities, desires, etc. allow us–all which God gives to us.
Therefore, I prefer to not think of it as cooperating with God, but rather, living out His plan and purpose for our lives. (whether we do good or evil)

Consider the Pharaoh who oppressed the Hebrews. Yes, the Bible is very clear when it says, “Pharaoh hardened his heart.” Yet it is equally clear when it also says, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.”
Moreover, there are several places scattered throughout the Bible which pull back the curtain and reveal God backstage directing the moves of this historical character.

Exodus1:8 “Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.” (enter stage right)😉 The following verses tell us this new Pharaoh oppressed the Hebrews because they were greater in number.

The Psalmist points out God’s role in this:
Psalm 105:24 “[YHWH] increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned [the Egyptians] heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.”

Likewise, Moses attributes Pharaoh’s activity to God’s plan and purpose for him.
Paul quotes Moses in Romans 9:17 "the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I [YHWH] raised thee up.”

The Bible clearly demonstrates that God didn’t merely permit an entire nation to hate and oppress his people, He raised it up. Israel’s suffering and “cruel bondage” (Ex 6:9) was God’s perfect will and personal activity.

Cooperation isn’t quite accurate because though our will is not coerced into action, we will to do only what God willed for us that we should do.
To think otherwise is evil boasting.
James 4:13 “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.”

Let me add that, although God controls evil, your remarks concerning His love and charity and goodness shine remarkably in all His acts whether working good or evil in His creatures. Hence, the hope of Job in the face of severe adversity:
"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
"Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”
 
Jennifoo said:
There is nothing erroneous in the Catechism. Yes it is 100 percent true. It contains all the dogmas of the Church, everything a faithful Catholic must believe. The website of the USCCB has an excellent section about the Catechism-sorry I don’t know how to post a link.
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O.K. but it is important that you learn - now.

Go back to Forums.Select Concierge Desk. Now select Sandbox. Open a TEST thread and practice the instructions below.

Place your cursor on the address box of the site you are interested in, right click the mouse one time. A box will appear which reads : CUT, COPY, paste, DELEAT, select all, OPEN IME, reconversion ( caps. indiacte emboldened type.) Put your cursor on " COPY." A dark blue line will appear there. Left click cursor. Bring your cursor down to body of the page you are on like example below. Left click the cursor once there. A flashing vertical line will appear at that spot. Right click cursor again. Your selection box will appear again. Now put your cursor on " PASTE, " and Left click the cursor there. Your link will appear on your page at the spot where the horizontal line is flashing. Try it a few times. If you have trouble go to Help and ask for help. 👍

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10215413
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
I’ve always regarded the CCC as without error… but looking back I think I maybe didn’t do such a good job of phrasing my initial post!
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Wait until a new CCC comes out and makes the current CCC obsolete due to error.
 
cap76 said:
Of course. However, I wasn’t giving my opinion. I was quoting from the early churches interpretation of what happened to Jesus according to their own words in Acts 2 and 4. Then I quoted from Isaiah’s understanding of the matter in chapter 53.
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Again - what I read when I read the Bible verses you quote is God’s infinite wisdom and understanding of what would happen to his Son in human form. That is very different from predestination. And certainly different than God bringing evil into the world.

Any of us could cherry pick Bible quotes that could, in isolation, seem to support a supposition.

God is love, not evil. God sent his Son out of love for his creation. He sent his Son knowing the evils that awaited. But God didn’t perpetrate the evil, anymore than God commands abortions, rapes, or murders.

Your supposition has far reaching consequences that do not square with God who is love.
 
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