Evil and God

[cap76]

Again - what I read when I read the Bible verses you quote is God’s infinite wisdom and understanding of what would happen to his Son in human form. That is very different from predestination. And certainly different than God bringing evil into the world.

Though it is marvelous to consider God’s wisdom in the things He knows, it is even more so when considered in light of His creative power and even more in His government of it. *Psalm 104.24, “O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all!.” *Naturally, this would include His government over the situational and moral evil within His creation.
If you notice the context of those Acts verses, the church is praying for help from God. Their prayer is essentially this, “O, Lord! Just as you raised up evil men to kill Jesus, we plead that you will now restrain the evil men who want to hinder our preaching.”
Look again at 4:27-28, particularly the latter part of the verse: For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
This was not merely knowing what would happen or permitting it. God determines it.

God is love, not evil. God sent his Son out of love for his creation. He sent his Son knowing the evils that awaited. But God didn’t perpetrate the evil, anymore than God commands abortions, rapes, or murders.

Of course God does not perpetrate evil, but neither does He merely permit it to happen. Where the line is drawn between permitting the act and doing is not clear. But the greater context of the Bible, does make it clear that the line is drawn somewhere far beyond mere permission. (Bear with me):
Amos 3:6, “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?”
1 Samuel 2.6-7, “The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.”
Exodus 4.11, “the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man’s mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.”
Isaiah 10.5-6, " O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation [Israel], and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets."
These accounts teach that evil occurs according to God’s purpose and under His direction and not by mere permission.
Carefully read the context of Isaiah 10. It is very insightful as to the dichotomy between the Assyrian king and God. Here we learn as we do in the case of Joseph’s brothers, that what people intend for evil, God intends for good. And that God not only intends, but He superintends it for good. This is such a great comfort to the people of God because this means that evil is perpetrated all within the scope of God’s infinitely good purposes.

Your supposition has far reaching consequences that do not square with God who is love.

It may appear that way, but that is jumping to conclusions. I have drawn from a broad study of the Scriptures. They teach that God is love and is almighty. Also, He is just and good: He will not leave those who do evil (Isaiah 10 with the king of Assyria) unpunished.
Deuteronomy 4.6-7, "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God…For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 9.10, “Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.”
Psalm 155.5, “The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hateth.”

Not to mention the great consequence suffered by ignoring these things. You rob yourself of much comfort to be gained through experiencing evil circumstances. God is not merely permitting the evil circumstances in your life; He is ordering and governing them. And if you are a true child of God then you ought to receive trials as such and embrace them as grace gifts come from God. We ought to think as King David did when he was cursed by Shimei. (2 Samuel 16)

Having said all of this, I realize one of the potential “consequences” which may arise is the age old problem of men blaming God for their sin. James addresses this in the first chapter of his epistle. “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”
This would be worth exploring, but it would be off topic and more appropriate for another thread.

 

[SperainDeo7]

Almost there.

We are free moral agents. But only as free to live as our nature, personality, opportunities, desires, etc. allow us–all which God gives to us.
Therefore, I prefer to not think of it as cooperating with God, but rather, living out His plan and purpose for our lives. (whether we do good or evil)

Consider the Pharaoh who oppressed the Hebrews. Yes, the Bible is very clear when it says, “Pharaoh hardened his heart.” Yet it is equally clear when it also says, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.”
Moreover, there are several places scattered throughout the Bible which pull back the curtain and reveal God backstage directing the moves of this historical character.

Exodus1:8 “Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.” (enter stage right) The following verses tell us this new Pharaoh oppressed the Hebrews because they were greater in number.

The Psalmist points out God’s role in this:
Psalm 105:24 "[YHWH] increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned [the Egyptians] heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants."

Likewise, Moses attributes Pharaoh’s activity to God’s plan and purpose for him.
Paul quotes Moses in Romans 9:17 "the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I [YHWH] raised thee up.”

The Bible clearly demonstrates that God didn’t merely permit an entire nation to hate and oppress his people, He raised it up. Israel’s suffering and “cruel bondage” (Ex 6:9) was God’s perfect will and personal activity.

**Cooperation isn’t quite accurate because though our will is not coerced into action, we will to do only what God willed for us that we should do. **
To think otherwise is evil boasting.
James 4:13 “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.”

Let me add that, although God controls evil, your remarks concerning His love and charity and goodness shine remarkably in all His acts whether working good or evil in His creatures. Hence, the hope of Job in the face of severe adversity:
"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
"Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

I must disagree with your response because the logical end of the premise is that there can be no such thing as sin as any evil done would be God’s will using that line of thinking. We know God does not will sin and evil = sin and vice versa. Sin offends God exceedingly - always. The Church’s teaching on actual graces, those which are given to us by God for our salvation, require our willful cooperation. One can choose not to cooperate with the graces of God, but it would be to their detriment. Protestants reject this teaching because they do not believe a person can do anything by works to merit salvation/justification.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Again - what I read when I read the Bible verses you quote is God’s infinite wisdom and understanding of what would happen to his Son in human form. That is very different from predestination. And certainly different than God bringing evil into the world.

Any of us could cherry pick Bible quotes that could, in isolation, seem to support a supposition.

God is love, not evil. God sent his Son out of love for his creation. He sent his Son knowing the evils that awaited. But God didn’t perpetrate the evil, anymore than God commands abortions, rapes, or murders.

Your supposition has far reaching consequences that do not square with God who is love.

Never fear you are correct. And it is Catholic teaching that God did not create evil nor does it cause it in any way. This is also the teaching of St. Thomas, St. Augustine and all the Fathers who spoke to this. Poster gets credit for reading the Scriptures but gets an " F- " for his interpretation.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I must disagree with your response because the logical end of the premise is that there can be no such thing as sin as any evil done would be God’s will using that line of thinking. We know God does not will sin and evil = sin and vice versa. Sin offends God exceedingly - always. The Church’s teaching on actual graces, those which are given to us by God for our salvation, require our willful cooperation. One can choose not to cooperate with the graces of God, but it would be to their detriment. Protestants reject this teaching because they do not believe a person can do anything by works to merit salvation/justification.

Never fear you are correct, Cap76 is just wrong. And it is Catholic teaching that God did not create evil nor does it cause it in any way. This is also the teaching of St. Thomas, St. Augustine and all the Fathers who spoke to this. Poster gets credit for reading the Scriptures but gets an " F- " for his interpretation.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

Though it is marvelous to consider God’s wisdom in the things He knows, it is even more so when considered in light of His creative power and even more in His government of it. *Psalm 104.24, “O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all!.” *Naturally, this would include His government over the situational and moral evil within His creation.

God as government is, IMO, a poor analogy. God is judge (there is no jury).

It is very interesting how easy it is to predetermine your conclusion, then cherry pick evidence and slant it in support. The media, especially, is insanely good at this. Perhaps you are a journalist?

 

[cap76]

Perhaps you are a journalist?

You accuse me of being incorrect, yet you haven’t answered any of my proofs. Perhaps you’re a politician?