Evil as non-Being

[Michael19682]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

 

[nickybr38]

God did create the demon so I’m not sure what you’re getting at?

 

[JerryZ]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

Just to clarify, God created an Angel that decided his pride was higher than serving Him making him a demon.
God did not create a demon.
The Angels and us all share one thing in common Free Will
And that is the huge difference, the demon does have a will but the tree stump has not.

 

[Glomung]

God did not “create” any demon (or devil). They were created as angels, pure as the driven snow, but through their own pride and malice, became enemies of God and have been cast out of Heaven. Now they spend their time and malice attempting to destroy mankind.

 

[Michael19682]

Just to clarify, God created an Angel that decided his pride was higher than serving Him making him a demon.
God did not create a demon.
The Angels and us all share one thing in common Free Will

Thanks. Source of the fallen angel story?

 

[Michael19682]

God did create the demon so I’m not sure what you’re getting at?

Did God create the demon evil? As we think of evil, with free will used improperly…The proposition was that evil is not always evil qua evil’s common definition.

 

[Michael19682]

God did not “create” any demon (or devil). They were created as angels, pure as the driven snow, but through their own pride and malice, became enemies of God and have been cast out of Heaven. Now they spend their time and malice attempting to destroy mankind.

Source, if it is not too much trouble.

 

[JerryZ]

Thanks. Source of the fallen angel story?

:doh2: Genesis???

 

[Linusthe2nd]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

The demons were not created evil, there were created in the State of Grace as good Angels but this was a period of testing for them. Some Angles revolted against God and were condemned to Hell. These were the demons. They became evil on their own just like men.

God created nothing but good things. Evil is caused by sin, that of the demons and that of man. God allows this evil so that he may make something better, though he does not always let us know what that might be.

 

[Michael19682]

Just to clarify, God created an Angel that decided his pride was higher than serving Him making him a demon.
God did not create a demon.
The Angels and us all share one thing in common Free Will
And that is the huge difference, the demon does have a will but the tree stump has not.

Romans 8:19. "“All of creation anxiously awaits the revelation of the children of God.”

Distinguishes between God’s children and creation. What about lesser animals, predators who do nothing but kill and maim other animals, sometimes wasting nearly all of the kill without consuming it. Are these animals free willed?

 

[R_C]

Did God create the demon evil?

No!! That’s Sacred Tradition 101!

All pure spirits were created good (how could God, being the fullness of goodness, do something which would be a sign of imperfect goodness, namely create an evil creature?) and some, by their free will, rejected God. Evil = absence of good.

We call pure spirits “angels” by virtue of their office. As for “demon”, this word simply means “spirit”, but “in Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the evil spirits or fallen angels.” Even the names “devil” (accuser) and “Satan” (adversary) are sort of “offices” by which we identify these spirits.

The Fourth Lateran Council clearly stated:

Diabolus enim et alii dæmones a Deo quidem naturâ creati sunt boni, sed ipsi per se facti sunt mali.

the Devil and the other demons were created by God good in their nature but they by themselves have made themselves evil

This page provides a great deal of information.

 

[Michael19682]

:doh2: Genesis???

Gen 6:2 cites some mating activity between human beings and other Heavenly beings. I would say that if they can mate, they all must have been human. Allowing a different interpretation invites heresy.

 

[Michael19682]

No!! That’s Sacred Tradition 101!

All pure spirits were created good (how could God, being the fullness of goodness, do something which would be a sign of imperfect goodness, namely create an evil creature?) and some, by their free will, rejected God. Evil = absence of good.

We call pure spirits “angels” by virtue of their office. As for “demon”, this word simply means “spirit”, but “in Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the evil spirits or fallen angels.” Even the names “devil” (accuser) and “Satan” (adversary) are sort of “offices” by which we identify these spirits.

The Fourth Lateran Council clearly stated:

This page provides a great deal of information.

It is tradition. I think it fair to not participate in that tradition, just as many other traditions are not encumbent on the laity. Also, that council was 800 years ago and we are discussing it with reference to a very esoteric point. Perhaps modern philosophy, like some areas of science, has new light to shed on scriptural exegesis. Just more thoughts. Thanks for continuing this…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Sometimes a tree falls because it’s dead, rotting, and is collapsing under it’s own weight. At my local court house there is a warning that the court house assumes no responsibility for damage from falling branches. In response to this many avoid the parking spaces under trees. Whether a person is good or bad, if a branch fell on their car I wouldn’t take it as a sign that there is an evil entity at play. Trees do fall. Sometimes people get out of the way, sometimes people do not get out of the way. Why posit an evil entity in these occurances?

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

Its not God that creates, its the Truth that makes things possible. God can only move along the lines of Truth therefore that which exists, exists because the Truth revealed it. The truth reveals everything, even ignorance and that ignorance permits the demon to exist. God didn’t actually create the demon. The Truth merely revealed demon hence its existence. God didn’t actually create the tree. The Truth merely revealed the tree. God cannot create, he can only reveal the Truth.

 

[Michael19682]

Sometimes a tree falls because it’s dead, rotting, and is collapsing under it’s own weight. At my local court house there is a warning that the court house assumes no responsibility for damage from falling branches. In response to this many avoid the parking spaces under trees. Whether a person is good or bad, if a branch fell on their car I wouldn’t take it as a sign that there is an evil entity at play. Trees do fall. Sometimes people get out of the way, sometimes people do not get out of the way. Why posit an evil entity in these occurances?

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

The point was to show Thinking Sapien by way of anaolgy that the demons might not have in their nature anything but evil. As it is absurd to imagine the tree’s branch in your courthouse as a fallen “evil” branch; so do I propose that demons are misconstrued as having a will. I liken them to extremely accurate, uncannily destructive, and only malicious when seen so as by human projection. Yet a fellow Catholic has informed me that their is scriptural and traditional evidence showing a free-will. I doubt this evidence, refute its legitimacy (but not its authority), and choose to remain confused. I brought animals into the picture because they have lesser wills, but still somefreedom – as where if the demon has a free will at all, it is “wholly bent on evil.”

 

[R_C]

It is tradition. I think it fair to not participate in that tradition, just as many other traditions are not encumbent on the laity. Also, that council was 800 years ago and we are discussing it with reference to a very esoteric point. Perhaps modern philosophy, like some areas of science, has new light to shed on scriptural exegesis. Just more thoughts. Thanks for continuing this…

The Council was 800 years ago. So what? The Gospels were 2000 years ago. The Old Testament is even older.

There are things in Sacred Tradition which we ought to accept. We cannot simply dismiss what we don’t like or even disagree. You may check for instance this website with regards to the teachings we ought to keep:

• In the beginning of time God created spiritual essences (angels) out of nothing. (De fide.)
• The nature of angels is spiritual. (De fide.)
• The angels are by nature immortal. (Sent. communis.)
• God set a supernatural final end for the angels, the immediate vision of God, and endowed them with sanctifying grace in order that they might achieve this end. (Sent. Certa.)
• The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sent. certa. as regards the fallen angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.)
• The evil spirits (demons) were created good by God; they became evil through their own fault.

 

[R_C]

a fellow Catholic has informed me that their is scriptural and traditional evidence showing a free-will. I doubt this evidence, refute its legitimacy (but not its authority), and choose to remain confused. I brought animals into the picture because they have lesser wills, but still some freedom – as where if the demon has a free will at all, it is “wholly bent on evil.”

You choose to remain confused, yet you are not confused. You say “the demon has a free will wholly bent on evil”. And that is, as far as I can see, free from error: in fact, demons cannot repent.

Pure spirits were created with free will. They were tested. They made their choice. Now they are either in heaven or in hell.

We are still being tested. After death, we’ll be in their same situation: our choice will be made, and we’ll be either saved or damned.

But that does not make them (or us after death) creatures without free will. Just like the Blessed Virgin and the saints in heaven retain their free will, while at the same time it is “wholly bent on goodness”

 

[Iron_Donkey]

In regards to animals - they have no free will and being maimed by a bear is morally equivalent of being hit by a falling tree. Animals are morally neutral. Moral evil is always the product of choice, and while animals certainly do have a process by which they make decisions, it is not choice as such.

Gen 6:2 cites some mating activity between human beings and other Heavenly beings. I would say that if they can mate, they all must have been human. Allowing a different interpretation invites heresy.

The sons of God and daughters of men were both human- descendants of Seth and Cain, it is generally thought. There was no mating between angels and humans. Angels have neither bodies nor genders, and each is his own species. They are totally not sexual in any way.

 

[Glomung]

Ezekiel 28, 13-15 is the source for the fall of Satan

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Various clergy (particularly exorcists) have had run-ins with demons for centuries and have acquired an immense amount of information concerning them. Most of which is readily available on the net. Though** be very careful **of the source as there is much disinformation out there also. Also a warning, do not become too interested in the fallen ones, the more you stare into Hell, the more it stares into you.