Evil comic books?

[CWBetts]

I’ll agree with Lost Wanderer here , the more you read it, the less you notice it. Like, for example, when it starts to get cold in winter, we notice it as something odd. But, then, in the middle of winter, the cold just becomes a fact that we accept and we notice it less. There are countless examples like that.
Peace.

That is not much of a defense. You are just admitting to being desensitized. Is that a good thing?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That is not much of a defense. You are just admitting to being desensitized. Is that a good thing?

I don’t really see the big deal considering those girls aren’t exactly real people. (I mean these are hand-drawn characters we’re talking here. Not someone’s mother/sister/daughter/wife as compared to real porn).

 

[edwest2]

I’ll agree with Lost Wanderer here , the more you read it, the less you notice it. Like, for example, when it starts to get cold in winter, we notice it as something odd. But, then, in the middle of winter, the cold just becomes a fact that we accept and we notice it less. There are countless examples like that.
Peace.

You are rationalizing it. This is what leads to a lack of sensitivity regarding sin. It’s common, what’s the big deal? It’s a big deal that even depictions of nudity show reverence, and that does not happen in manga.

The Christian must always be on his guard against things that might lead to sin. To avoid those things that might lead to sin.

“Be sober, be vigilant for your adversary, the devil, goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t really see the big deal considering those girls aren’t exactly real people. (I mean these are hand-drawn characters we’re talking here. Not someone’s mother/sister/daughter/wife as compared to real porn).

Although the dignity of an individual is not being violated, it still presents women as objects, and not persons.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

"CWBetts:

That is not much of a defense. You are just admitting to being desensitized. Is that a good thing?

Good point there…

Although the dignity of an individual is not being violated, it still presents women as objects, and not persons.

But how is that not violating dignity?
Or am I missing your point completely?

Peace.

 

[CWBetts]

But how is that not violating dignity?
Or am I missing your point completely?

You misunderstaind, I’m afraid. I meant the illustrations aren’t violating the dignity of a specific person as photographic pornography does. In a way its worse because it violates women’s dignity overall.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Although the dignity of an individual is not being violated, it still presents women as objects, and not persons.

How nice of you to generalize all the girls in these manga without even reading them or knowing what they look like (so more who they are). I hardly see a girl who could punch all perverts through a wall as an “object”.

You misunderstaind, I’m afraid. I meant the illustrations aren’t violating the dignity of a specific person as photographic pornography does. In a way its worse because it violates women’s dignity overall.

Oh yes, drawing fictional girls in situations that only exist in the imagination is so much more horrid than actually forcing a real underage girl to pose for illegal pornographic pics.

 

[CWBetts]

How nice of you to generalize all the girls in these manga without even reading them or knowing what they look like (so more who they are). I hardly see a girl who could punch all perverts through a wall as an “object”.

Oh yes, drawing fictional girls in situations that only exist in the imagination is so much more horrid than actually forcing a real underage girl to pose for illegal pornographic pics.

How about this: portraying fictional girls in these situations affects the psyche of the viewer, and slowly twists them into seing women as sex objects

 

[edwest2]

That’s right. Girls and women should be viewed with dignity and respect. That’s how they should be depicted. I was at an anime convention two weeks ago and I saw lots of manga.

I’m interested in giant robot toys and kits.

So please stop trying to justify nudity as anything that should be viewed as normal in manga.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

How about this: portraying fictional girls in these situations affects the psyche of the viewer, and slowly twists them into seing women as sex objects

You don’t get the point do you? It is not possible to view those women as sex objects when they are depicted pounding dudes to a pulp the moment they catch them at it. Seriously, read the manga yourself. That’s what’s always happening in these fan service situations. Guy falls into a hot spring while girls are bathing—>angry girls do all manner of torture and brutalization (from punching him straight to kingdom come to trying to dice him with a killer sword technique).

As extreme as the above sound, that’s what really does happen (especially in Akamatsu’s work). And though you may not like how it was put, but it is looking at how mean these girls become that teach me that women are not to be toyed around with.

That’s right. Girls and women should be viewed with dignity and respect. That’s how they should be depicted. I was at an anime convention two weeks ago and I saw lots of manga.

I’m interested in giant robot toys and kits.

So please stop trying to justify nudity as anything that should be viewed as normal in manga.

Peace,
Ed

You know you’ve never told me just exactly what type of manga you subscribe to ed. There are different kinds of anime geeks. You have your junior anime geeks with their Bakugan. You have the heavy-metal mech junkies. Your mainstream Narutards and Bleach fanatics. Then you have fan service freaks like my friends (who, no matter how much you deny it, also make up a fair portion of the whole otaku community). Fan service is considered “normal” in anime/manga. That is a fact. Read anime mags like Newtype and you’ll see that its just as commonplace as blood and gore.

Just cuz you’ve said you’ve read manga doesn’t mean I have to put stock in everything you say. :coffeeread:

And for the record, I never justified this as a “good thing”. As I said, its just part of the package in manga nowadays. That’s just how it is. Its either fan service or borderline yaoi (which is worse in my opinion gets mobbed by fangirls) that just serves as a crude way to keep your audience attached. If you wanna blame someone for this, don’t blame the authors. Blame the majority of Japanese manga readers that won’t easily be snagged by something that doesn’t have at least the tiny bit of their fetish. You really do need to get a better idea of Japanese modern culture because that’s what mangaka feed on for their ideas (at least in this case). As someone already said here, you can’t exactly say that Japan is 100% aligned with Christian values (personally, I’d only give it around 15% ) so it shouldn’t really surprise you on how secular their society is.

 

[CWBetts]

I do get the point. It would be possible to show a woman’s strength WITHOUT nudity. Let me phrase it like this: Would you want to be reading a manga like one of these when Jesus returns? If not, then it is an activity that needs re-evaluated

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Before I write anything more, I would like to thank both Lost Wanderer and CWBetts and I want to say that I do see both sides of the situation (having studied Japanese culture a bit in my Japanese Language class and having been to Japan myself but at the same time retaining my Catholic viewpoint).

A couple of points:

You misunderstaind, I’m afraid. I meant the illustrations aren’t violating the dignity of a specific person as photographic pornography does.

In a way its worse because it violates women’s dignity overall

.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

How about this: portraying fictional girls in these situations affects the psyche of the viewer, and slowly twists them into seing women as sex objects

Good points.

It is not possible to view those women as sex objects when they are depicted pounding dudes to a pulp the moment they catch them at it. …] that’s what really does happen (especially in Akamatsu’s work). And though you may not like how it was put, but it is looking at how mean these girls become that teach me that women are not to be toyed around with.

Interesting points…

And for the record, I never justified this as a “good thing”. As I said, its just part of the package in manga nowadays. That’s just how it is. Its either fan service or borderline yaoi (which is worse in my opinion gets mobbed by fangirls) that just serves as a crude way to keep your audience attached. If you wanna blame someone for this, don’t blame the authors. Blame the majority of Japanese manga readers that won’t easily be snagged by something that doesn’t have at least the tiny bit of their fetish. You really do need to get a better idea of Japanese modern culture because that’s what mangaka feed on for their ideas (at least in this case). As someone already said here, you can’t exactly say that Japan is 100% aligned with Christian values (personally, I’d only give it around 15% ) so it shouldn’t really surprise you on how secular their society is.

I guess this essentially begs the question, “If it is not founded on Catholic principle, is it okay?”

I do get the point. It would be possible to show a woman’s strength WITHOUT nudity. Let me phrase it like this: Would you want to be reading a manga like one of these when Jesus returns? If not, then it is an activity that needs re-evaluated

I really like the general idea here. I guess that what I am getting at here is, “If we accept that this is not Catholic in origin, is it still okay?”
For example, Love Hina is about the life of three students who are studying to get into a university and it is also a romantic comedy. As I am a high-school student, I find the romanctic aspect mixed with the ‘let’s study for exams’ aspect a very appealing concept. Also, I hate to use this comparison but I can’t think of anything better right now. Let us think about some of the great Greek philosophers. Were they Christian? Certainly not. But more or less, we consider them to be great philosophers, no?
So, by analogy, I am asking, “If it is okay to read Plato/Aristotle, why is it not okay to read this? If so, why?” Now, I realize that that is a very dramatic question, but one I am trying to ask only with the best intentions.

Again, a humble thank you to all who have responded and will respond.
Peace.

 

[CWBetts]

To compare Comics to Plato is to compare Matt Groeing to DaVinci. Consumerism vs. True Innovation. Appeal to the Masses vs. Intellectual Revolution. If you want action scenes and reaffirmation of the strength of women, it is done in comic titles that do not rely on nudity to draw customers. Psylock, Wonder Woman, Spider-Girl, Elektra, and Shi are all strong female characters that feature female independence without resorting to cheap tittilation. If you prefer the manga style, I am sure that there are some out there that will fit the bill. I am just saying that if nudity and excessive violence can be avoided, it should be.

 

[celticsfan1983]

To compare Comics to Plato is to compare Matt Groeing to DaVinci. Consumerism vs. True Innovation. Appeal to the Masses vs. Intellectual Revolution. If you want action scenes and reaffirmation of the strength of women, it is done in comic titles that do not rely on nudity to draw customers. Psylock, Wonder Woman, Spider-Girl, Elektra, and Shi are all strong female characters that feature female independence without resorting to cheap tittilation. If you prefer the manga style, I am sure that there are some out there that will fit the bill. I am just saying that if nudity and excessive violence can be avoided, it should be.

Have you seen Psylocke’s outfits? Holy moly, I probably enjoyed those drawings a little too much when i was a kid.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

To compare Comics to Plato is to compare Matt Groeing to DaVinci. Consumerism vs. True Innovation. Appeal to the Masses vs. Intellectual Revolution.

I knew someone was going to say that, but my questuon is, “why?”

CWBetts:

If you prefer the manga style, I am sure that there are some out there that will fit the bill. I am just saying that if nudity and excessive violence can be avoided, it should be.

I agree here.

Peace.

 

[CWBetts]

My answers explained why. Plato and Aristotle changed the way people thought. They were teachers who gave us philosophy, logic and the beginnings of scientific inquiry. Comics are light fluff to pass the time.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I do get the point. It would be possible to show a woman’s strength WITHOUT nudity. Let me phrase it like this: Would you want to be reading a manga like one of these when Jesus returns? If not, then it is an activity that needs re-evaluated

How many times have I told you, I have never stated that this was a ‘godly’ method. Unfortunately, it’s a method that works in keeping the audience attached every now and then. Its the result of their culture. To judge the people reading this stuff without knowing their culture would be quite arrogant though.

To compare Comics to Plato is to compare Matt Groeing to DaVinci. Consumerism vs. True Innovation. Appeal to the Masses vs. Intellectual Revolution. If you want action scenes and reaffirmation of the strength of women, it is done in comic titles that do not rely on nudity to draw customers. Psylock, Wonder Woman, Spider-Girl, Elektra, and Shi are all strong female characters that feature female independence without resorting to cheap tittilation. If you prefer the manga style, I am sure that there are some out there that will fit the bill. I am just saying that if nudity and excessive violence can be avoided, it should be.

The problem with your comic book heroine examples is that they “save the day” no differently than their male counterparts (plus I highly doubt you’re talking about their modern comic book reincarnations ).

Besides, the goal here is not really just “female strength”. It can teach guys not to mess around with them. (e.g. When you break girls’ hearts, they get back by breaking your legs.)

Oh and I really hate to say this, I really do, but I’m afraid you need to be aware of the reality that “family-friendly” stuff like that gets less and less artistic praise in this century. (Unless your target audience are aged 7 and below ). If I’m going to be an anime author with that type of restriction, I might as well just write the script for the next Dora the Explorer.

 

[CWBetts]

How many times have I told you, I have never stated that this was a ‘godly’ method. Unfortunately, it’s a method that works in keeping the audience attached every now and then. Its the result of their culture. To judge the people reading this stuff without knowing their culture would be quite arrogant though.

The problem with your comic book heroine examples is that they “save the day” no differently than their male counterparts (plus I highly doubt you’re talking about their modern comic book reincarnations ).

Besides, the goal here is not really just “female strength”. It can teach guys not to mess around with them. (e.g. When you break girls’ hearts, they get back by breaking your legs.)

Oh and I really hate to say this, I really do, but I’m afraid you need to be aware of the reality that “family-friendly” stuff like that gets less and less artistic praise in this century. (Unless your target audience are aged 7 and below ). If I’m going to be an anime author with that type of restriction, I might as well just write the script for the next Dora the Explorer.

If its not Godly, and you recognize it as such, then why continue in it?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If its not Godly, and you recognize it as such, then why continue in it?

Like I said, because it just happens to be part of the package and I find the story far more interesting than the nudity anyways. There was this other manga for example, titled Chobits. A story about a guy who finds a humanoid computer and takes it home. The computer however, turns out to be a legendary type of humanoid computer that is capable of having free will. The story had a huge amount of fan service but it had a lot of insightful moments as well and it also made me realize why God gave us free will instead of making us into puppets.

I’m not saying fan service is a good thing… but its just a fact amongst otaku like myself. I really just have to deal with it. You really have to learn more about otaku culture for you to understand. Its kinda like modern society itself. We see it in the streets, in the bars, in the malls. There are a lot of things nowadays that would have mortified the early Christians should they see the world as it is now.

But what can we do? We can’t turn back time. We can’t turn everything back to the way it was. We just have to deal with what we have. Even if it means having to deal with mixtures of clean and unclean.

Besides, sexuality in manga also gives it a strong sense of realism. And realism makes things easier to relate. I’d rather read stories about the real-life horrors of prostitution (despite the rather unavoidable descriptions of what goes in in the business) than watch some fluffy episode of Care Bears. Why? Because the former gives an actual description of what is wrong in the world and what should be done whilst the latter is just your typical, simple-minded children’s program for the oversensitive parent’s arsenal.

 

[CWBetts]

Yes we have a free will, but God wants us to chose the right path. If your career brings you into conflict with the theachings of the church, maybe its time to change careers. We are not supposed to conform to the world. (Romans 12:1-2) So my question to you is this. You admit that my way of thinking is spiritually correct, yet you fail to do what you know is right. Why?