evil God?

[fred_conty]

If God knows the choices of creatures before they exist and he creates them, in what sense has he not predestined them to heaven or hell? As a Catholic, answer this if you can.

The Catholic Church rejected Calvinism for political reasons, not because Calvinism is inherently less rational than their own theologies.

I can be on a high hill and know that two cars below are going to crash. But that dosen’t make them crash just because I know they are. Knowledge does not make anything
happen.

Now the standard come back to that is chemistry where certain mixture of chems are known to cause definite results. But my knowing still does not cause the reactions but
rather the properties of those chems causes those reactions. And the choice to mix
those properties belongs to the person but the very proproperties of those chems are
not in his control to change. God makes the properties, and our choice to mix or not mix.

Just a thought.

 

[JDaniel]

Explaining all evil as privation makes no sense… after all what is a brain tumor a lack of?

Brain health.

God bless,
jd

 

[Lisa44]

I can be on a high hill and know that two cars below are going to crash. But that dosen’t make them crash just because I know they are. Knowledge does not make anything
happen.

Now the standard come back to that is chemistry where certain mixture of chems are known to cause definite results. But my knowing still does not cause the reactions but
rather the properties of those chems causes those reactions. And the choice to mix
those properties belongs to the person but the very proproperties of those chems are
not in his control to change. God makes the properties, and our choice to mix or not mix.

Just a thought.

The analogy of you viewing the cars is not akin to God. It would only be similar if you made the cars, and the road, and you set them on a collision course knowing with 100% certainty that they will crash. In that instance you do make them crash.

So if God knows our end, then we in fact do not have free will, but an illusion of free will.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

So if God knows our end, then we in fact do not have free will, but an illusion of free will.

I don’t understand why knowledge of something is causality of something. Is my knowledge of reality in general causing it to be real? God knows a truth because it is true. It is true that I am going to choose to do something tomorrow; would that mean that what I am going to do is being forced on me to do it? No. It just means that I am going to choose to do it. Gods knowledge of it does not change the fact that I chose it, it only means that I am going choose something and also the fact that God cannot possibly have counter-knowledge of me choosing to do something different than what I am going to do. God can only have knowledge of what I am going to do. If God has foreknowledge of somebody crashing and burning, it is only true knowledge because that’s what happened.

 

[Daedelus76]

A loving God, knowing that someone certainly would be damned, freely willed or not, would never create them in the first place. What kind of God finds purpose in damning somebody before they are even born? Torturing them for all eternity… this is not love.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

A loving God, knowing that someone certainly would be damned, freely willed or not, would never create them in the first place. What kind of God finds purpose in damning somebody before they are even born?

Who said that this is the God that we believe in? What are you talking about?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

A loving God, knowing that someone certainly would be damned, freely willed or not, would never create them in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with giving people the freedom to choose love and there is nothing deserving or owed to somebody thats evil, regardless of whether God knew they would choose hell or not.

Your own fancy definition of right and wrong will not save you from the truth.

 

[Lisa44]

I don’t understand why knowledge of something is causality of something. Is my knowledge of reality in general causing it to be real? God knows a truth because it is true. It is true that I am going to choose to do something tomorrow; would that mean that what I am going to do is being forced on me to do it? No. It just means that I am going to choose to do it. Gods knowledge of it does not change the fact that I chose it, it only means that I am going choose something and also the fact that God cannot possibly have counter-knowledge of me choosing to do something different than what I am going to do. God can only have knowledge of what I am going to do. If God has foreknowledge of somebody crashing and burning, it is only true knowledge because that’s what happened.

Because you are not the creator. If the creator is omniscient and knows the end of all things he created, including you, then your free will is an illusion that you experience because you don’t know the future.

But in this situation God does know. He knows what you have done, are doing, and will do. He knows everything. You think the future is undetermined because you don’t know what the future is. But God does know. So this knowledge is perfect. There is nothing unknown.

If this is in fact a quality of God, then humans are a product of their condition of not knowing and therefore experience things as if they are currently happening instead of if they had already happened, which is how God knows things.

Now you will try and find a way that you can act freely, that God doesn’t know about. But that is your illusion if God is in fact omniscient.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Now you will try and find a way that you can act freely, that God doesn’t know about. But that is your illusion if God is in fact omniscient.

All this means is that we cannot act without God knowing. It does not follow from this fact that our freewill is an illusion.

 

[tonyrey]

Only a supreme narcissist could think the universe was made just for them.

Only a supreme nihilist could think the universe was made just for no one, no reason or no purpose whatsoever!

 

[Daedelus76]

All this means is that we cannot act without God knowing. It does not follow from this fact that our freewill is an illusion.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he’s the only true “decider”. Calling our choices “free” is only a convention in that case. We might experience “making a choice”, but to God’s perspective, we never had a choice in the first place. In the end, God is the Creator and cause of the reprobates (the evil and damned), if he is the “first cause” of all things. You can’t have a big, powerful God and not have him be amoral and unloving. Love involes relating to somebody, not controlling and dictating their lives, or threatening them if they do something you don’t like.

Only a supreme nihilist could think the universe was made just for no one, no reason or no purpose whatsoever!

And you say this like nihilism is a bad thing? I think a true appreciation of nihilism can lead to a profound spirituality.

 

[tonyrey]

And you say this like nihilism is a bad thing?    I think a true appreciation of nihilism can lead to a profound spirituality.

A true appreciation of nihilism presupposes that one is not a nihilist and has something positive to offer!

 

[tonyrey]

Most philosophers agree that evil is consistent with omnipotence in a physical universe but some argue that it is excessive.

Including that archsceptic David Hume!

 

[jochoa]

If God knows the choices of creatures before they exist and he creates them, in what sense has he not predestined them to heaven or hell? As a Catholic, answer this if you can.

Recognize that you know many of the choices regarding answering this question.
A. I can choose to answer.
B. I can choose to not answer.
C. I have the option of saying, “What are the answers I have to choose from?”
D. I have the option of saying, “Since the Bible says it, ‘So be it’”
E. I have the option of saying, “Well, since God is All-Powerful, All-Knowledgeable and All-Wise, I believe He has this ability.”
F. I have the option of saying, “Since it is known that the biological parents, who conceived you, did so freely, you inherit that same free will.”
G. I have the option of saying, "Since I believe God’s Will is being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated equally towards others and the self. Since neither mine, nor yours, is perfectly aligned with God’s Will, but we both desire the Blessings which come from God’s Will: unbreakable peace through Patience, limitless happiness through Kindness, unstoppable energy through Motivation, and content wisdom through perfect knowledge for ourselves as well as others. It can be said our will is either free to do as we see fit or free to do God’s Will.
H. I have the option of saying, “God performed an imaging phase of what would happen if multiple free-willed beings, with the capability to reproduce free-willed offspring, were given the desires of peace, happiness, energy, and wisdom. During this imaging phase, he could react perfectly because He could study the present, the before, and the after, and freely will throughout time because it was His Imaging of How to Achieve the Goal of bringing Free-Willed beings to freely choose to be and spread the means to be perfectly patient and kind and motivated with all the body and with all the spirit and with all the thoughts and with all the will equally towards others and the self. This Imaging made flesh is what is happening now. Since we had free-will in the Imaging phase, and what is happening now is the exact same as the Imaging, Right now, we have free-will and are not pre-destined.”

To sum it up, simply because you know the choices and options a person has available before willing a thought or action given a particular circumstance, does not mean you know what the person will choose.

Prime example:
I will choose one of those options because that is what I know.
Question, which will I choose to respond with?
If I choose to not respond in accordance with what you think I will choose, did I exercise my free will from yours?
If I choose to respond in accordance with what you think I will choose, am I only a figment of your imagination, who is doing as you unknowingly will?

Bottom line, my friend: since it is not provable, let’s focus on growing together in patience and kindness and motivation, so that you and I may experience the unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy as a team and individually as Jesus did and taught.

Thank you very much for your challenging questions! I grew greatly in perspective, consideration, and knowledge from pondering your question. I hope you may grow equally from pondering my response.

Thoughts?

 

[Lisa44]

All this means is that we cannot act without God knowing. It does not follow from this fact that our freewill is an illusion.

No. Let me ask you a question. If God knows everything about your life, even before you are born, and how you will die and everything you will do, then how is it possible for you not do what God knows you will do?

For you to act outside of God’s knowledge is to call God a liar.

It’s like Peter, Jesus said to him: you will deny me three times. Peter said no I won’t!
And he did, didn’t he?

If God’s knowledge is perfect, you cannot act outside of what God knows you will do.

Do you understand that? Yes or no? Just like Peter, you THINK, that you will not do certain things, but God already knows what you will do before you even do it.

It is about God having perfect knowledge of everything, having already experienced everything, and knowing how it ends. And then you have us, who have limited imperfect knowledge and who do not know what will happen next.

I know you think that just because God knows what you will do, does not mean that your actions are predetermined, but that is exactly what it means.

Just because God knows what you will do, doesn’t mean that you know. And it is your not knowing that makes you experience things as if you really are making the choices for yourself. When in the ultimate reality of God, what you are going to do has already happened in his mind because he knows the future.

However, I am not saying that you do not experience your choices as real. Just as Peter swore that he would not deny Jesus! He really believed that he would not deny Jesus.

But God knew he would. And Peter was humbled when he realized that God was right.

It’s a very complicated subject but Daedelus understands this at least. He doesn’t have any faith in God, but he understands that this is the ultimate reality with an omniscient God.

 

[LoyalChristian]

Very Simple. Look at Jesus, Christ’s teachings what he did for us. He died on the cross for us because HE LOVED US. With his own will and by love he went to the cross, he was not for forced as he knew it was his mission. PROOF - there are over 3 billion reasons why God exist.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

No. Let me ask you a question. If God knows everything about your life, even before you are born, and how you will die and everything you will do, then how is it possible for you not do what God knows you will do?

.

Its not possible, and I agree with that. But this doesn’t mean that the object of Gods knowledge wasn’t a free choice of the creature. It just means that God cannot know something different to what truly happened.

 

[billcu1]

Being as I don’t really believe in God, I’m curious to know the Catholic arguments for why God, if he exists, cannot be evil. I have heard that Thomist theology has arguments about this, but I’d like someone to explain this to me.

And for what it’s worth, I’m a non-theist, I don’t believe in the monotheistic conception of God. If such a being existed, I doubt he would be omnipotent and I would doubt he would be good.

The good is not really good as most think. Like you I believe that good and evil are human ideas. The good is simply existance. And as a buddhist your probably familiar with cittimatra that I subscribe to myself personally. If one exists they must’ve been non-existant.

B

 

[charlie4christ]

Dear Daedelus76 ,
God originally created us to be purely good as he himself is…But our ancestors gave in to evil and ruined much of mankinds destiny. It is not easy to please God as we came from the world and he is not of it. God intended mankind to live life to the full however by free will many have been condemned. True hapiness and favour from God is rewarded to those who do the Lord’s will not their own (which is from the world) and perservere even throughout obstacles such as persecutions. Only then will you understand some of God’s steadfast love which is made apparent when you abandon yourself to him; NOT to the world. The world’s ways are easy, try the hard way for a change my friend and I assure you God will notice, and then see if your question is not answered.
God bless.

 

[Daedelus76]

I told you already. The reason you cannot understand the greatness of heaven is that it is so great as to be beyond our current imagination. We are in the position of children playing in the mud, when God plans for us to enjoy a holiday by the sea. Or alternately, a child on being told that sex was a great physical pleasure might ask if it included eating chocolates. The child cannot understand sex, he can understand chocolate. We are in the position of that child. We understand sex, but we cannot understand the greatness of heaven. (St. Paul, who knew something about suffering, said- I reckon the sufferings of the present life are not to be compared to the glory that awaits us).

I’ll grant that all of this is possible (though improbable). It simply requires too much faith. And any being that would demand that kind of faith without evidence would have to be beyond evil… so I very much doubt your theology is correct. “Just trust me” is the mantra of authoritarian cults everywhere, from Jim Jones onward. How do I know that Allah is not waiting on the other side of the veil to punish me for not being a good Muslim instead of Catholic?

I have another reason to think God is not a Good, Omnipotent Creator… evolution. If evolution is true, then God chose a rather cruel method to bring about his will. One of Charles Darwins saddest events in his life was high daughter died, and he realized that most organisms that have lived don’t live long enough to even reproduce, just like his daughter. Darwin’s discoveries lead many intelligent people to realize that nature is incredibly cruel and hostile to life. There is no finger of God at any particular point showing a “creation” seperate from this evolutionary struggle. IF this is God’s methods of playing out the Creator, its hurtful, cruel and ugly. I think God owes Darwin an apology for sacrificing his child for his artistic vison (since I guess that’s the only reason left why God would create, if he’s perfect he had no other reason than to produce a macabre work- less Rembrandt and more Gomez Adams). Maybe God is actually above caring about Darwin’s daughter, or above being a moral agent with any duties or obligations to his creatures, but we are no longer talking about the personal God that theists pretend to worship. We’re talking about an Inexorable Force, no room for real love, which requires reciprocity and vulnerability.