evil God?

[MindOverMatter2]

No, some Catholic ideas just don’t work in the real world, and I’ve already submitted I do not believe we can state, even know, facts about God . So really religion must be judged on what it produces, “by your fruits you will know them”, right? Well, psychotherapy, self-help, and “new age” spirituality ultimately produce better people than Christianity- we can live a better life without your “infallible” clerics telling us how to live, cowering in fear to man-made traditions and rules based on spurious, degenerate medieval reasoning.

.

But you are saying that we can live a better life according to man made rules (self help books etcetera). And this claim that Christianity does not help or produce good people is just ridiculous and is an assertion. And in any case what you claim to be good isn’t necessarily good. You are just expressing your subjective ideas; you are not telling us what good actually is. Everybody has a claim about what they think good is. Only good itself can tell you for certain what good is and you are claiming that this is impossible. Forgive me if I don’t have much faith in “you”.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Psychotherapy, self-help, and “new age” spirituality presuppose Christian values.
In other words you regard your own reasoning and moral conclusions as infallible!
If you were consistent you would reject the teaching of Jesus if it amounts to no more than “man-made traditions”…
You need to explain how and why it is “spurious” and “degenerate”.
False! You are obviously unaware of the social teaching of the Catholic Church and the work of missionaries in the third world.
False! The Catholic Church has done and is doing far more to alleviate human poverty, misery and suffering throughout the world than “humanists” who pontificate from the comfort of their homes…

 

[tonyrey]

The fate of Icarus is a relevant - and salutary - reminder of the consequences of hubris… and inordinate confidence in one’s own judgment… if one knows the name of his father!

 

[Daedelus76]

Psychotherapy, self-help, and “new age” spirituality presuppose Christian values.

I’ve heard this argument before and its not true. Humanistic values are at odds with Roman Catholicism. Furthermore, Catholicism is not the only worldview that values things like compassion and justice. Your worldview is just not necessary and you are engaged in special pleading.

In other words you regard your own reasoning and moral conclusions as infallible!

Not at all… I could be wrong, but I don’t consider it very probable. It is YOU who rest upon a false assertion of infallibility and certitude. Give positive reasons why I should accept your viewpoints, not just empty claims that your leader doesn’t err.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I’ve heard this argument before and its not true. Humanistic values are at odds with Roman Catholicism. Furthermore, Catholicism is not the only worldview that values things like compassion and justice. Your worldview is just not necessary and you are engaged in special pleading.

Not at all… I could be wrong, but I don’t consider it very probable. It is YOU who rest upon a false assertion of infallibility and certitude. Give positive reasons why I should accept your viewpoints, not just empty claims that your leader doesn’t err.

I Don’t think its fair to excuse somebody of making a false assertion unless you can show evidence. Do you even understand what it means for the Pope to be infallible; or are you just making fallacious assertions based on hearsay?

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve heard this argument before and its not true. Humanistic values are at odds with Roman Catholicism. Furthermore, Catholicism is not the only worldview that values things like compassion and justice. Your worldview is just not necessary and you are engaged in special pleading.

1. Please list Humanistic values.
2. What is their **rational **basis?

Not at all… I could be wrong, but I don’t consider it very probable. It is YOU who rest upon a false assertion of infallibility and certitude. Give positive reasons why I should accept your viewpoints, not just empty claims that your leader doesn’t err.

Do you reject the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity?

What are they based on if it isn’t the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father - rather than accidental freaks which exist for no reason or purpose?

 

[tonyrey]

I Don’t think its fair to excuse somebody of making a false assertion unless you can show evidence. Do you even understand what it means for the Pope to be infallible; or are you just making fallacious assertions based on hearsay?

Anyone who believes we exist **for no reason **has no reason to believe in fairness.

 

[Daedelus76]

1. Please list Humanistic values.
2. What is their **rational **basis?
   Do you reject the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity?

What are they based on if it isn’t the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father - rather than accidental freaks which exist for no reason or purpose?

We exist because your parents gametes joined and became a baby… no other “purpose” is necessary to posit for our life. Its suffecient for me to know the mechanical cause, the final cause, the “purpose” rests on nothing but authoritarian assertions of suppossed “natural law” (which is completely ad hoc in the end), something many philosophers have critiqued.

“Liberty, equality, fraternity” was from the French Revolution… many of the revolutionaries oppossed Christianity and specificly Roman Catholicism. Napoleon on sevaral occasions state that he was not a Christian. The Church in France, on the other hand, oppossed the ideals of the Revolution throughout France’s history, and backed the despots that were overthrown in the first place.