Evil spirit from God, 1 Samuel:16

[joeantony]

Hi All,

I am curious to know how you will interpret or understand the below verses from the first book of Samuel. Please read the below verses from 1 Samuel, chapter 16,

[14]Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
[15] And Saul’s servants said to him, “Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
[16] Let our lord now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is skilful in playing the lyre; and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.”
[23] And whenever the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Why does it say " evil spirit from God" ? We have been taught that no evil comes from God. and No evil can come from God. Is it a problem of translation or just showing the lack of knowledge of God of the people that these verses are referring .

Thanks to all those who are willing to help me with this!
†

 

[Ahimsa]

Read Job. Not Steve Job. The Book of Job.

 

[Shin]

Here’s the Douay Rheims version.

My thoughts on the answer: Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Why does it say " evil spirit from God" ?

Ahimsa suggested to read Job, which I think he/she means how in chapter 1 God “permits” the devil to afflict Job. In the OT, it seems that often God is described as responsible for something He “permits.” His creation has conditions that allow for evil to occur rather than God actively ordaining evil. We should understand the text as such.

Bishop Challoner writes in the Haydock Bible Commentary: “An evil spirit, by divine permission.”

 

[Heuchler]

When I looked at the context of the story, the purpose of the “spirit” was that Saul would be convinced to take David to help so that David may eventually become King. It wasn’t as if God sent a couple of His demons, it seems more like the sending of the plagues. He allowed Saul to be afflicted with the spirit and God used it to allow David to one day become king.

 

[Hanging_Puppet]

So is only God allowed to use evil to bring forth good but humans are not allowed to do that? I cannot help but feel its like if a Police officer turned his head away and ignored a gang beating occurring for his own personal reasons.

I mean the biggest defense of this would be protecting our free will, but I don’t think preventing Supernatural occurrences goes against our free will. God giving the thumbs up to a horrid demon to haunt a mere mortal seems rather cruel, especially since he holds the power to keep any and all demons away from humans which again I must state would not go against our free will since we’re still capable of sinning without a demon hanging around our shoulder.

 

[MarcoPolo]

So is only God allowed to use evil to bring forth good but humans are not allowed to do that? I cannot help but feel its like if a Police officer turned his head away and ignored a gang beating occurring for his own personal reasons.

On the one hand, no, we can’t ultimately measure God based on what morality applies to humans. It’s kind of like a child and parent. It’s a different context if the parent responsibly stays up late, but the child should not.

Still, God doesn’t ordain evil like we do, that’s the thing. And yes, because we have free will so we can freely love, we are able to commit evil. But because God is good, He even makes good come of that! So I don’t see the injustice.

 

[joeantony]

When I looked at the context of the story, the purpose of the “spirit” was that Saul would be convinced to take David to help so that David may eventually become King. It wasn’t as if God sent a couple of His demons, it seems more like the sending of the plagues. He allowed Saul to be afflicted with the spirit and God used it to allow David to one day become king.

Yes, In fact the first response to my question was very accurate. The moment I thought of Job, I realized it is indeed correct to say that God permitted it rather than it came from god. If the permission was from God it happened because God allowed it. In that way , yest it came from God but , No evil comes from God.

Thanks Heuchler!

 

[Hanging_Puppet]

Yes, In fact the first response to my question was very accurate. The moment I thought of Job, I realized it is indeed correct to say that God permitted it rather than it came from god. If the permission was from God it happened because God allowed it. In that way , yest it came from God but , No evil comes from God.

Thanks Heuchler!

I’m sorry but I don’t seem to understand still. If God is the only force keeping demons from entering our daily lives and he permits for one to enter a man’s life isn’t it the same as if he told the demon to do this task? Again not to be insulting but it’s the only example I can think of, if a member of the Mafia or organized crime family said to a smaller street gang whom they had in control out of respect and fear “I would not go against you if you decided to attack the Police precinct” isn’t that enough knowing that they won’t get punished for causing this chaos to put an equal blame to the mob boss? Again I do not mean to insult God by stating that he acts like a mob boss, it’s just the only other place I could find a scenario where one group would do something because a stronger force told them that they wouldn’t be punished for doing it.

 

[PJM]

=joeantony;8413805]Hi All,

I am curious to know how you will interpret or understand the below verses from the first book of Samuel. Please read the below verses from 1 Samuel, chapter 16,

[14]Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
[15] And Saul’s servants said to him, “Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
[16] Let our lord now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is skilful in playing the lyre; and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.”
[23] And whenever the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Why does it say " evil spirit from God" ? We have been taught that no evil comes from God. and No evil can come from God. Is it a problem of translation or just showing the lack of knowledge of God of the people that these verses are referring .

Thanks to all those who are willing to help me with this!
†

***What is being pointed our here, are TWO FACTS we all need to be aware of:

1. Satan is real and really active
2. No one is immune to satan;s attacks and temptations.

That said we ALSO need to know that satan cannot FORCE anyone to sin. Sin is always an act of OUR FREEWILL.

As one strives to grow in holiness; one ought to expect to be usually be, more often tempted and with a greater degre of pernicious lies from satan. The closer to God we are; the more we are hated by satan. That friends is WHY the sacraments; expecially MAss, Eucharist and Confession are so critial to our salvation and our effeorts to join Christ in defeating satan in our lives.***

God permits temtations but NEVER more than we are able to deny if we are so inclined

God permits temptation in oder thatwe may PROVE and demonistrate our love of and for Him.

God is the Creator of everything; including satans and his minions. BUT God cannot Himself do evil!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Heuchler]

I’m sorry but I don’t seem to understand still. If God is the only force keeping demons from entering our daily lives and he permits for one to enter a man’s life isn’t it the same as if he told the demon to do this task? Again not to be insulting but it’s the only example I can think of, if a member of the Mafia or organized crime family said to a smaller street gang whom they had in control out of respect and fear “I would not go against you if you decided to attack the Police precinct” isn’t that enough knowing that they won’t get punished for causing this chaos to put an equal blame to the mob boss? Again I do not mean to insult God by stating that he acts like a mob boss, it’s just the only other place I could find a scenario where one group would do something because a stronger force told them that they wouldn’t be punished for doing it.

I think it is more about how God was using this evil to create a greater good. God does not endorse the evil but he allows the evil so a greater good can come. This is not similar to God saying that it’s ok for you to possess people and commanding the spirit to do so because it will help, God is simply allowing the action and in no way supporting it but using this action for the greater good.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Actually it’s relatively simple, if one knows, that in Saul’s days, people thought that illness is a plague send from God (a bad spirit) for punishing him who sinned.
Jesus Himself refuted this sight several times in quite a few biblical verses. And Jesus proved by His curing and healing blind and lame, that illness is NOT send from God.
In 1Sam 16,14 people noticing Saul’s disability to lead his people because of a physical affliction, thought an evil spirit from God had infested him, when Saul lost the talent to lead his people though his access of illness. It’s simply the way and manner of the time to describe an inflicting spiritual or physical malady. This opinion and wrong sight of illness, ended with Jesus clarification (among others in Lk 13.4).

Yours
Bruno

 

[Shin]

Actually it’s relatively simple, if one knows, that in Saul’s days, people thought that illness is a plague send from God (a bad spirit) for punishing him who sinned.
Jesus Himself refuted this sight several times in quite a few biblical verses. And Jesus proved by His curing and healing blind and lame, that illness is NOT send from God.
In 1Sam 16,14 people noticing Saul’s disability to lead his people because of a physical affliction, thought an evil spirit from God had infested him, when Saul lost the talent to lead his people though his access of illness. It’s simply the way and manner of the time to describe an inflicting spiritual or physical malady. This opinion and wrong sight of illness, ended with Jesus clarification (among others in Lk 13.4).

Yours
Bruno

Actually this is incorrect, 1 Samuel 16:14, confirms directly, “But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.” And so this is exactly what happened. Attempts to read these statements otherwise is against the mind of the Church.

It is not simply a manner of speaking, it is the reality of the matter. Evil spirits can cause illness. And our Lord can send people illnesses, as part of His Providence.

We can see how this can occur in the scriptures. Job is one example, there are many others where God takes direct responsibility. It is His holy scriptures.

To quote:

'**Nothing happens in the the universe without God willing and allowing it. **This statement must he taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. ‘Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives’ is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, ‘and God intervenes everywhere.’

I am the Lord, He tells us Himself by the mouth of the prophet Isaias, and there is none else. I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. (1s. 45:6-7) It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, He said to Moses. (Deut. 32:39) ‘The Lord killeth and maketh alive, it is written in the Canticle of Anna, the mother of Samuel, He bringeth down to the tomb and He bringeth back again; the Lord maketh poor and maketh rich, he humbleth and he exalteth. (1 Kings 2:6-7) Shall there be evil (disaster, affliction) in a city which the Lord hath not done? (Amos 3:6) asks the prophet Amos: Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God Solomon proclaims. (Ecclus. 11:14) And so on in numerous other passages of Scripture."’

• Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence, Father Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure

All forms of what is sometimes called natural evil (suffering, affliction, punishment) can be directly caused by God. Only moral evil is exempt from this. God does not refrain from punishing evil, nor from bringing good out of both moral evil and natural evils.

 

[thistle]

Hi All,

I am curious to know how you will interpret or understand the below verses from the first book of Samuel. Please read the below verses from 1 Samuel, chapter 16,

[14]Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
[15] And Saul’s servants said to him, “Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
[16] Let our lord now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is skilful in playing the lyre; and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.”
[23] And whenever the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Why does it say " evil spirit from God" ? We have been taught that no evil comes from God. and No evil can come from God. Is it a problem of translation or just showing the lack of knowledge of God of the people that these verses are referring .

Thanks to all those who are willing to help me with this!
†

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 14. From the Lord. An evil spirit, by divine permission, and for his punishment, either possessed or obsessed him. (Challoner) — We no longer behold in Saul any generous sentiments. He falls a prey to melancholy, anger, suspicion, and cruelty. “He was seized with an illness, inflicted by the devil, says Josephus, ([Antiquities?] vi. 9.) so that he seemed to be choking; nor could the physicians discover any other means to alleviating his distress, except by employing some person skilled in music… David alone could bring the king ot his right senses, by singing hymns with the sound of the harp. Wherefore Jesse consented that his son should remain with the king, since he was so much delighted with his company.” (Haydock) — The Jews, and many Christians, suppose that Saul’s illness was melancholy, or “madness,” as St. Chrysostom calls it. It was inflicted by an evil, or even by a good angel, as the minister of God’s vengeance, (Exodus xi. 4.; Calmet) who punished his former pride and rebellion, by reducing him to so mean a condition. (Haydock) — St. Augustine and Ven. Bede suppose, that the evil spirit troubled him by God’s permission. (Worthington)

Ver. 16. Easily. The effects which have been produced by music are truly surprising, if we may believe what the ancients have related. Our music may not at present be so striking, or we may keep a greater restraint upon our passions, and moderate the exterior demonstrations of our sentiments more than they did. (Calmet) — But, in the present case, there was probably some miraculous interference. (Haydock) — The disciples of Pythagoras lay a great stress on music, to calm the passions, (Quintil. ix. 4.; Menochius) or to rouse them. (p. 439.) (Haydock) — It may also frequently contribute to restore health. (Gallien, &c.) See chap. x. 10., and 4 Kings iii. 15. (Calmet) — but God made it so efficacious here, to shew the virtue of David, and the injustice of Saul. (Worthington) — Thus, by the prayers of the Church, the devil is expelled. (Theodoret) (Tirinus)

Ver. 23. Departed from him. Chased away by David’s devotion. (Challoner) — The melody of David’s harp, as some of the Fathers remark, represent that sweet and engaging demeanour, which should distinguish the peaceful ministers of the gospel,…whether they strive to allay the rage, or dispel the fears of a troubled mind." (Reeves) — Nothing can equal the divine harmony of those sublime truths which are contained in the Psalms of David, and nothing can so powerfully contribute to drive away the spirit of pride from our hearts, and awaken them to the voice of heaven. (St. Augustine) — Some of these truths might make some passing impression even on the mind of Saul; and the devil could not bear to hear the praises of God. (Haydock)

 

[Big_Dummy]

If you read on in the text, you will see that the “evil spirit” is mostly likely simply depression because it was David playing music that lifted his spirits. God simply allowed Saul to become depressed.

14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil[a] spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul’s attendants said to him, “See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the lyre. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes on you, and you will feel better.”

17 So Saul said to his attendants, “Find someone who plays well and bring him to me.”

18 One of the servants answered, “I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the lyre. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him.”

19 Then Saul sent messengers to Jesse and said, “Send me your son David, who is with the sheep.” 20 So Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine and a young goat and sent them with his son David to Saul.

21 David came to Saul and entered his service. Saul liked him very much, and David became one of his armor-bearers. 22 Then Saul sent word to Jesse, saying, “Allow David to remain in my service, for I am pleased with him.”

** 23 Whenever the spirit from God came on Saul, David would take up his lyre and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.**

Chapter 21
Of the fact that devils struggle with men not without effort on their part.

But our belief is that they undertake this struggle not without effort on their part. For in their conflict they themselves have some sort of anxiety and depression, and especially when they are matched with stronger rivals, i.e., saints and perfect men. Otherwise no contest or struggle, but only a simple deception of men, and one free from anxiety on their part would be assigned to them. And how then would the Apostle’s words stand, where he says: “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against world rulers of this darkness, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places;” and this too: “So fight I, not as one that beats the air;” and again: “I have fought a good fight”? For where it is spoken of as a fight, and conflict, and battle, there must be effort and exertion and anxiety on both sides, and equally there must either be in store for them chagrin and confusion for their failure, or delight consequent upon their victory.

newadvent.org/fathers/350807.htm